The Fulton County Glove Cutters' Strike of 1914 - Board of Mediation and Arbitration Hearings
The Glovers of Fulton County

The Glove Cutters' Strike of 1914: New York State Board of Mediation and Arbitration Hearings,
October 7, 1914 ~ Afternoon Session



[Original manuscript pages 111-206]


Wednesday, Oct. 7th, 1914 at 2:00 P.M.

J O H N S T U R M, residing at 238 So. Main Street, Gloversville, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Your residence? A. 238 So. Main St. Gloversville.

Q. How old are you? A. I am 58 years of age.

Q. Where do you work? A. Myers, Moses and Lewis Co.

Q. How long have you worked there? A. I have worked there six years now, a little more or a little less, a little more I guess.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. I am an American table cutter.

Q. For how long? A. How long have I cut?

Q. Yes? A. I commenced cutting in 1879, and I didn't cut exactly steady all of that time.

Q. Did you work elsewhere than at Myers? A. I started to learn my trade at Beaver & Co., and then I worked nine or ten years at Littauer's, and then I worked for George Bahl for four years, and then with John C. Allen and then this last time, I have been at Myers for the last six years, about, with the exception of about four months.

Q. What do you get a dozen for cutting? A. Well we get for boys certain size 55 cents, 1 to 5, 5 to 8, 5 to 10, and for suedes 60 to 70 for boys, for mens 70 cents and suedes and capes 75 and kids 70 cents for mens.

Q. How much a week do you get? A. Well, it will average out, I should say, of course, you have got your work in on Friday, at noon. For instance you get in four days, -

Q. You have got to get your work in previous to Friday noon? A. Yes, sir, get it in by Friday noon or it goes on to the next week's work.

Q. A full week's time is up to Friday at noon?

A. That is a full weeks time, corresponding to a weeks time. Some weeks I will earn fourteen dollars, that is, it will average, you might say, $11 up to something as high as $17. Of course if it is $17 that will be because it was over from the other week, a batch you could not get in in time, so that you could not make than $17 a week right along. Of course, we work generally, practically, well, all through the summer session, 11 hours a day, and over 11, because I am a very steady man. I'm not one of the fastest but I consider myself a good fair medium man, and I try to give the best benefit to everybody of my working time.

Q. How does your work now compare with your work in past years, that is, taking everything into consideration, cost of living and so on? A. Oh well, I guess it is about even up.

Q. You mean that you are getting along just as well as you were four or five years ago? A. Oh, no, the taxation and the like of that so far as that is concerned, every year the burden has been added on a little more and a little more. For instance, your skins are not as good, and you are exacted more and more all the time.

Q. Yes? A. And for instance your tax is put so that sometimes you can get your lot and sometimes you can not. Well, if you happen to go short on a lot, you have got to got to the boss and tell him you can not get it, and I can not see my way out. Sometimes with a batch of skins you can do it, may be you will not come out right, and if anything is not right you have to make it right, got around and hunt up leather and may be make the thumbs right, the forches and whatever it is, and it all takes time, and when you are working by the piece or by the dozen that is your time you have got to take, if you stop for anything like that, because you know you only get what you actually earn.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does your wife work at this? A. Well, my wife is passed working. She could not work any more. No, I have got a young man and daughter at home. We all work though. Everybody works at our house except my wife.

Q. How many hours a day do you put in? A. When it is summer time, we put in over eleven hours.

Q. You put in over eleven hours? A. We put in over eleven hours.

Q. And half a day on Saturdays? A. Half a day on Saturdays.

MR. McMAHON: I guess that is all.


Q. Is this work you are speaking of what is commonly called pulldown cutting? A. Why, it is pull down cutting, sort of nicknamed. It is practically table cutting, but it is called American table cutting. All the difference is that we do not split the skin, and on imported skins you can under this system of cutting, get more gloves, get more results, get more pairs, but in splitting you can get a better result. It is practically just the same as table cutting, because in lots of shops the pull down cutter and the table cutter, cuts the suede just the same as I do, just the same.


Q. The amount of money that you earn in a week, is it about equal to that of a table cutter? A. No. Our wages is about twenty percent less all the way around, twenty cents a dozen, and the work is not any faster; no, not exactly; I can not see where there is very much difference; I have asked to be put on straight work time, time and time again. I have asked for that a great many times and can not get anything done. I have asked and they say you are listed. They say we have got you listed as an American table cutter and can not change it. I do not know why the American table cutter can not get promoted according to conditions, and what he can accomplish as well as other craft of the trade that is coming in.


Q. Is that a common grievance of the men? A. What?

Q. The fact that after a long term of years, they will not promote you to be table cutters? A. Well, I don't know as I can say that it is a general grievance here or anything like that, but it certainly is a grievance with me, because I consider that I can cut any kind of glove except a long glove. I never cut any of them, but I ought to be promoted for what I can do, but the main grievance is that we are not getting enough for our work, and we certainly cannot exist the way conditions are today.


Q. Is it a question of your being able to live on what you are getting or the fact that you are doing work that is more than you are being paid for? A. Well, in my mind, it is a calling or trade which ought to get more than a man who picks up a shovel and works in the trenches; there is not any mechanic in the land who is not promoted except in the glove trade.

Q. Do you know anything about the comparison between the glovemakers in this city or in New York City or anywhere? A. Well in New York, I think they get the same as we do here/ I have never worked there. Lots of the gentlemen have worked there, but I never have.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

Mr. Simon Lieberman, will you now take the stand.


S I M O N L I E B E R M A N, residing at 13 Orchard St., Gloversville, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. How old are you, Mr. Lieberman? A. 42.

Q. And you have worked as a glove cutter how long?

A. Since I was 12 years of age.

Q. In Gloversville? A. No, sir, in Russia.

Q. In Russia? A. Yes, sir, I came over here in 1893.

Q. And you have worked here since 1893? A. Since 1893.

Q. For whom? A. I worked for different manufacturers; but most of the time I worked for Myers and Sons.

Q. You work for them today? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Doing a high class of work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Getting 95 cents a dozen for your work? A. 95 cents?

Q. Yes? A. Get 95 and a dollar. It is a dollar of mocho, and 95 cents for cape; that is when we are cutting binding; when we don't cut the binding we get five cents less.

Q. And the binding cutting is piece work too?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much do you make in a week? A. Well, last year I made in the neighborhood of $680 for 52 weeks; that is about two weeks out, including the inventory, and then a few days of vacation during the summer; this year I have got all my envelopes with me until we went out on a strike.

Q. Is this a weekly period? A. Yes, sir, weekly, and I figured it up, and for thirty four weeks I made $418.04 and I make it, I averaged up here say, $12.99 a week; if you want to see it you can see it here.

Q. How many hours do you work? A. I work ten hours a day steady.

Q. Are the conditions now as good as they were in the past? A. No sir. We have got to punch out, you have got to cut our more gloves out of skin than you used to be, and the skins are running poorer now that you used to be; and the other way you could average up higher, and the way things are now, the wages are lower and the conditions are harder to make a living under.

Q. And how about your cost of living? A. The cost of living is, we should live according as we are entitled to, we could use bout twice as much as we earn and we have got to get along as far as we can.

Q. Well are things costing more than they did in the past? A. Yes, sir. To my knowledge I was owing back bills last inventory we took, I was owing back bills to the grocery man and I was owing back bills with the butcher and some other little bills I can not pay up, and if I was even with the world I would be a happy man.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And does your wife work with you in the glove making business? A. She doesn't work regularly, but she puts stays and pieces on; when she does work she makes $2.50, $2.00 or $2.50 a week.


Q. Have you any other family except your wife?

A. Yes, two children.


Q. Have you taken work home to do after hours at the shop? A. I never did, except last vacation this summer, they allowed us to take a couple of lots out to home and that is the only work of that kind I ever done since being here in Gloversville.


Q. Did you have any other reasons for going out on a strike than those you have mentioned already? A. No, not particularly any other reasons, but as I say, being that we can not make a living. I believe the strike was forced upon us by the high cost of living and the low wages we were paid, and it was almost impossible to endure it and stand it any longer. I believe it is no use for a man to work ten hours a day and all night and then die. I believe it is better for employer and employee, not to have the men so that they can not be able to earn a living and run back bills and this strike has been forced upon us, we have been forced to do this.

MR. ROGERS: That is all, Mr. Lieberman.

We will now call Antonio Compo.


A N T O N I O C O M P O, residing at 264 So. Main St., Gloversville, N.Y. called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. You are glove cutter Tony? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What class of work; class A? A. Class A.

Q. How much do you get for that? A. No more than ten, eleven and twelve dollars a week; no more than that.

Q. What is that? A. I make no more than twelve dollars a week.

Q. How much do you get a dozen? A. Ninety, Ninety-five cents and a dollar.

Q. How long do you work? A. Ten hours a day.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does your wife work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much does she make? A. Well, some weeks she makes nine and ten dollars.

Q. What is that? A. Eight or nine dollars a week when she works.

Q. Have you any children? A. No, sir.

Q. Well she works pretty steadily then? A. Yes.

Q. Why did you strike? A. Because the work is very hard and everything costs so much and I can not live on that.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.


Q. Does your wife work at home or in the shop? A. She works at home.


Q. Have you got a list of your week's wages; what is the lowest you make? A. I don't understand lowest?

Q. The lowest you make; the lowest amount of money you get for a week's work?


Q. Do you make nine or ten dollars a week? A. When she works.

Q. How much do you make? A. Nine or ten.

Q. Every week; do you ever make less than nine? A. No, when she don't work -


Q. Did you ever get less than nine dollars when you worked? A. Yes.

Q. How often?


Q. What is the range of your own wages; how low an amount do you make; how low and how high do your own wages run? A. That is what nine or ten dollars.

Q. You always make nine dollars? A. Yes; when I work hard and there is work come in better I make eleven or twelve dollars.


Q. Did you ever get less than nine dollars? A. Sometimes less than nine.

Q. How much less? A. May be seven and eight dollars.

Q. Seven and eight dollars? A. Yes.

Q. Well, how long have you done that? Those are short weeks when you make seven and eight dollars? A. Yes, short weeks.

Q. How often does that happen; is that every week or once a month? A. No, no; sometimes.

Q. Well, how often? A. Well, may be two or three times.

Q. A year? A. week, oh no, a month.

Q. Perhaps two and three weeks in a month? A. Yes.

Q. That you get eight? A. Eight or nine.

Q. Have you got below eight dollars? A. I don't understand you.

Q. What is that? A. I no understand.

Q. Do you ever get less than eight dollars; do you ever get under the seven and eight dollars a week? A. Seven and eight.

Q. What? A. Seven or eight dollars, sometimes.

Q. What is the least you make? A. That is the least.

Q. That is the least? A. Yes.


Q. How many gloves can you cut in a day when it runs easy; when you work right along? A. Sometimes two dozen, twenty-seven, twenty-five or eighteen when I work steady.

Q. How many hours do you work? A. Ten.

Q. And five on Saturday? A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been a table cutter? A. Oh, may be twenty five years.

Q. Are you making as much now as you used to make?

A. When I work all right, I make may be twelve dollars, and when it is work hard I can not make twelve dollars.

Q. And you make twelve dollars? A. Sometimes.

Q. Ten years ago? A. Oh yes, sure.

Q. What is the lowest you ever made in a week? A. The most, may be nine dollars, nine or ten.

Q. What is the largest amount, the most money that you ever got in a week in your experience; how much is the biggest amount in a week you ever made? A. May be forty-five dollars, that is, a month.

Q. What is that? A. A month; I don't understand very good English.

Q. Did you ever get fifteen dollars in one week? A. No.

Q. Never? A. No.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: We will call William Windsor.


W I L L I A M W I N D S O R, called as a witness, residing at 15 Yost Street, Johnstown, N.Y., and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Windsor? A. Lucas & Kennedy.

Q. How long have you worked there? A. Five years.

Q. As a table cutter? A. As a table cutter.

Q. Before that did you work anywhere? A. I worked at Littauer's for nine years.

Q. How much do you get per dozen? A. 95 cents.

Q. How much do you make a week, roughly? A. Well, my average weeks for the thirty-three weeks prior to the strike there, was $14.55.

Q. How many hours a day? A. That is 92 hrs. a day.

Q. Is that as much as you have ever made in past years? A. That is, well, - I have done better than that, when the work was better.

Q. Are conditions as good now as they were? A. In what respect?

Q. In respect to the work, the way it is turned out to you and factories, etc? A. No, it is not. It gets worse every year and in fact, well, about every month there is a little more tacked on.

Q. Can you always get as many pairs out of a hide as they ask you to? A. Well, in that respect, conditions are different in Johnstown than they are in Gloversville, and rather the shop where I work, because after a man has worked there quite a while, and he gets to be an old hand and you go out and speak to the boss about the fact that you don't believe that there is that amount of gloves in there, why he will probably take your word for it and tell you to do the best you can. Of course all shops are not the same. You have got to be an old hand there in order to have the boss do that for you.

Q. Are you married? A. I am.

Q. Does your wife work at this? A. She does.

Q. How much does she make? A. She makes two to three dollars a week.

Q. Any children? A. One, that is living, and I lost a couple.

Q. Why are you striking? A. Why. I am striking to better my conditions, that is to make a living without my wife working. I think every man certainly ought to be entitled to that, but as time has gone on, the conditions have got worse year in and year out, and conditions are a great deal worse than they were 17 years ago when we had the strike, and then a man was quite a little bit better than he is today. Then, the skins have got poorer too and the wages have remained just the same except in the last case we had, we got a five cent reduction for cutting silk lining - silk fittings - and certainly the cost of living has gone up in that time, and certainly anybody must admit that the cost of living has gone up a third, but our wages have remained just the same and the skins got poorer.

Q. And I take it you struck a point where you can not get along? A. Yes, sir, and we are just existing now, and as it is now we have got to work every day the shop is open in order to exist.

Q. In event of sickness where would you be? A. You would be up against it; you would be behind; in December of every year this shop is shut down for inventory and nine out of every ten men that I know of, and they shut down for two or three weeks, they are that two or three behind when they start the first of January.

Q. Do they ever catch up? A. That I can not say.

Q. Do you save any money? A. Not at present, no.

Q. I mean prior to the strike, could you save any? A. Not within the last ten years.

Q. Not within the last ten years? A. Not within the last ten years.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call George Tozzi.


G E O R G E T O Z Z I, residing at 48 Yost Street, Johnstown, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Tozzi; what is your first name? A. George Tozzi.

Q. Where do you live? A. 48 Yost St.

Q. Where do you work? A. Lucas & Kennedy.

Q. Here in Gloversville? A. No, in Johnstown.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Well, I have figured to the best of my knowledge, I earn about thirteen dollars, a little less and not more.

Q. Thirteen dollars? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many hours a day? A. 10 hours steady without loss of a minute.

Q. As a table cutter? A. As a table cutter.

Q. On class A work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That pays 95 cents? A. 95 cents a dozen.


Q. Is there any distinction in the work as a table cutter; do they call it class A work? A. No sir, there is only one class.

Q. Only one class of work? A. Yes, sir.


Q. Are the class A, B and C combined in pull down cutters? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do they do any of that there? A. There is very few of them; I think there is only two pull down cutters in Lucas and Kennedy's.


Q. Pull down cutters, do they do all this work, do the same work? A. I don't pay any attention; I have to much on my mind; I could not bother looking after the others there.


Q. Don't you get ninety five cents and a dollar for different kinds of work? A. Yes, sir, we get 95 cents for the nappar work and a dollar for the mocho.

Q. Then it depends on the leather? A. Yes, sir, it depends on the kind of leather.


Q. Is that 90, 95 and 1.00 a pretty fair test to earnings? A. No, very much harder.

Q. Very much harder? A. Yes, in fact we have to work much harder for the dollar we get on mochos than we have to work on the nappar for which we get the ninety five cents. Of course the skins are a little easier to handle and they are cleaner, but it is very difficult to cut the mocho skins, they are so faulty, and not so easy to handle.


Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does your wife work at this? A. She does sir.

Q. Have you any children? A. We have seven.

Q. You earn thirteen dollars a week? A. $13.00 a week.

Q. How much does your wife earn? A. She makes two, and a dollar and a half sometimes, to my objection. I hate to see her work, but I can not help it.

Q. And your work is getting harder in order to get along? A. Oh, I don't know. I may be an exception. I think that a man like me ought to get five dollars a day in order to make a living; that is only a dream.

Q. Why did you strike? A. I struck to better my conditions. To see my children better dressed and better fed and so forth and to be brought up to be better children and to lead better christian life.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

Is Mr. Eugene Simeno here?

Is Mr. Samuel Land here?

Is Mr. T. Abbott here?


T H E O D O R E A B B O T T, residing at 111 Fourth Avenue, Johnstown, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work? A. Hutchinson & Potter.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Well, that varies, anywhere from sixteen to twenty-two.

Q. How many hours a day is that? A. Ten hours a day or 9:, a few minutes, it varies roughly.

Q. That is you get 95 cents a dozen? A. 95 and a dollar. Of course, I am considered a fast man and I work faster.

Q. You work faster? A. Yes, sir. Of course after I learned my trade I got more than the man who taught me my trade; I could earn more than the man who taught me at the time I finished my trade.

Q. Is there anybody else in the factory getting as much as you do a week? A. Well, there may be one, but I could not tell; we couldn't tell within two or three dollars a week; he may make two or three one way or the other and may be not.

Q. Are you married? A. No.

Q. Aren't you able to get along on nineteen to twenty two dollars a week? A. Sure, I am as a single man.

Q. Can you marry? A. Well, not under existing conditions; I consider I have been in good health and able to work hard and supposing I had other troubles then of course, we are not under such difficult taxation as these other shops. I may have to leave that shop any day I don't know. I may have to go and fight in any one of these nigger driving places as they call them, and where would I be as a married man then? And I know quite a number that are married and what they are going through, makes it appear to me quite a serious step to take, to get married.


Q. Got you kind of scared? A. You bet they have.

Q. Me too?


Q. You struck then because you thought the conditions are as bad as they could be in the glove business? A. We think they are pretty bad.

Q. They are not bad for you personally? A. They are not bad for me personally under existing conditions, but remember I have learned more in the six months past of the conditions that have existed here. I have been employed continuously for five years at Hutchinson and Potter and of course I had no dealings with any one outside and I didn't know the conditions that were existing here in this city until within the last five or six weeks and I learned quite a lot too.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Frank Harper.


F R A N K H A R P E R, residing at 5 Prospect Street, Johnstown, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. You work in Johnstown? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in what factory? A. Hutchinson and Potter.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Well, I should think I average, my average would be eleven dollars a week.

Q. Eleven dollars? A. Yes.

Q. Is that for a ten hour day? A. Well, I would say nine hours.

Q. Nine hour day? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Ninety five cents a dozen? A. Well, I work at 90, 95 and 1.00 a dozen, but I have worked more on the 1.00 a dozen class, since 1910 I worked mostly on the class where the mocho is all mixed in, it is put up for a dollar a dozen, and before that I used to get 1.032 a dozen, and then they made the mocho a dollar a dozen and they ground up rags and everything else, had to do it for a dollar, and I was the man that had to cut the rag mocho and I had 32 cents cut off of my price and I was chiefly put on that work and now I am the only cutter that works on that and I am a slower cutter because of the class of work and I get a good deal of that work this rag mocho work, sometimes probably you get better mocho than I do sometimes, than I got a raise from 932 cents to a dollar, and my work went on, then came a day and the boss said it is going to be a dollar for mocho and that meant practically I was cut 32 cents for what I used to be.

Q. That was in 1910? A. No, it was 1.032, it was raised from 932 cents to me and I was getting a 1.032 before that raise and it was a cut for me and I have cut on the other work, I have cut on cape, and I have cut on suede and kid, and when there is not many mochos done then you have to switch off on cape, suede or kid.

Q. How have conditions been since 1910? A. Conditions have been poor for me; prior to that I earned better money; I earned better money than since 1910.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does your wife work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does she make? A. Well she will make from two to three dollars a week.

Q. Have you any children? A. I have one, a niece that is staying with me.

Q. You have a niece staying with you? A. Yes, sir.

Q. She does the house work? A. Why, yes sir.

Q. What are your reasons for striking? A. My reasons are these, to better my conditions. I have been waiting for the last few years to see things better, but I could not see any way of getting different and couldn't see any chance of getting ahead, and now I have bills all around now. I have one bill now, in December now, six tons of coal, and I don't see how I can get it. I don't know if the existing conditions do not become better this spring I do not know how I would have been able to have paid up and then I have other bills besides. This work down there has been so, and the tax on the leather and I have got different times shortages, sometimes I have got lots that have been put up for five dozen and they have marked 63 pairs and 64 pairs so as to squeeze you, so you get the five dozen out and you have got to busy yourself and work and worry and I know I went into the firm, the foreman and myself and I said what can I do with the skin the gloves aren't there, and then he said do the best you can, then perhaps you worry two hours or three hours or more how you were going to get the gloves out of that lot of skin.

Q. Would a fifteen cent raise strike you as reasonable? A. Why, yes. Now, the facts of the matter is, down in the shop, while I was down at the shop within the last ten years, we had a couple of sickness and I didn't want to go away and I kept up, and I didn't go to the shop for a time and I know that the company, not the present foreman, but there was another man and put him on your table. That is the facts, but not the present foreman, but the one before him. I was just dragging myself there to work so I would not stay at home and think of myself. That is the present condition. The conditions were different with us before but they have got worse since.

Q. Have you ever worked any where else? A. Yes, sir, I worked here and I have been at Hutchinson and Potter's since 1904. I went there right after the last trouble and before that I worked for Tomas E. Ricketts and at that time the association, he hied me, but because I belonged to the association and prior to that I worked at Lucas and Kennedy's.

Q. Well, are conditions about the same in these different factories? A. Well, Ricketts, the conditions were better and Lucas and Kennedy's were better.

Q. But conditions are pretty bad, you think? A. Yes, sir, they can not be any worse today, as a whole, and I have heard men say on the stand, it was just existing. Well, I am not existing, I am just staying here, that is all.

Q. You are just living? A. That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Edward L. Loveys.


E D W A R D L. L O V E Y S, residing at 9 Dove Street, Johnstown, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work? A. I work at Northrup's, Johnstown.

Q. And you make how much a week? A. I make about twelve dollars a week, but I work about 48 weeks in the year, and I average it for 52 weeks.

Q. And you make a little over twelve dollars? A. Every week.

Q. Are you at table cutting? A. At table cutting and the reason I only work 48 weeks is because every Christmas time we have three weeks for inventory and the fourth of July week we have a short time and all of the other time I work.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes.

Q. Does your wife work? A. Yes, works on gloves.

Q. Have you any children? A. Two children.

Q. How much money does your wife make? A. Nine and ten, sometimes and then from two to three dollars, may be.

Q. Can you live on that? A. I can not live, but I don't figure that a man should figure just to live, but I think that he should save some money.

Q. Do you save any? A. I have saved a little. Another condition, I am lucky in that I pay low rent. I live in my mother-in-law's house and I pay a rather low rent. Then in order to enable my wife to earn that little money I have to help wash the dishes and help the children and I don't think that a man who has worked three years to work a trade, short resort to dishwashing so his wife can use a machine and enable him to be able to save a little money for his old age.

Q. How old are you? A. 36.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: We will call Thomas Jones.


T H O M A S J O N E S, residing at 34 Bloomingdale Ave. called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Q. Where do you work? A. At Littauer's.

Q. And how much money do you make a week? A. I average about fourteen and a half to fifteen a week, for forty eight weeks, and take out of that say about a month when the shop is closed down for inventory and a vacation.

Q. Your wages run about fourteen a week? A. Fourteen and a half to fifteen.

Q. And that is for how long a day? A. Nine hours a day. This means also Saturdays, as in certain parts of the year we work Saturdays.

Q. All day? A. All day.

Q. In the summer months? A. It is closed down in the summer months, for Saturday half holiday.

Q. You are a table cutter? A. I am a table cutter.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you able to get along in your work at the salary you receive? A. No, I am not.

Q. Can you save any money? A. No, sir.

Q. You feel you ought to have more? A. I certainly do.

Q. Does your wife work? A. Yes, she does a little hand work and probably make a dollar and a half a week and sometimes two.

Q. Any children? A. One.

Q. How old? A. How old am I?

Q. No, your children? A. Five years old.

Q. How old are you? A. I am 38.

Q. Are you in debt? A. Yes, certainly I am. Why wouldn't I be. I have been out of work seven weeks now.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

Is Mr. Eugene Simeno here?

(A. VOICE - He is not here)

Is Mr. Leo Martin here?


L E O M A R T I N, residing at 44 Steele Avenue, Gloversville, N.Y. called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Martin? A. Littauer Bros.

Q. And you draw how much, how much a week? A. Oh, I make, I guess about thirteen, fourteen or fifteen dollars a week, and sometimes I will make eleven, and sometimes sixteen and if I would take it for a year, that would be I should say about thirteen or fourteen dollars on an average for every year.

Q. You are a table cutter? A. Yes, I am a table cutter.

Q. And do other men make about the same as you do there? A. Well, sometimes the men make less than I am; I guess more people make less than I am than more than I am.

Q. How long a day? A. Oh, I will say 92 to sometimes about ten and a half or nine.

Q. Nine hours a day? A. Nine hours a day.

Q. Do you save any money out of your wages? A. No, I do not save from my wages. Of course my wife is working and of course I save a few dollars because my wife is working; she is working too since I am married.

Q. She works all the time? A. She works all the time since I am married, in that way.

Q. How much does she make? A. Well, from three to six or seven dollars a week.

Q. You can save a little out of your wife's wages? A. I can save a little out of my wife's wages but not much.

Q. You don't think you are being paid enough? A. I don't think I am being paid enough. I think we ought to be paid more every year. I think I am getting worried because of the taxation. I do not know what is the matter. They buy cheaper stock; and I use to make, eight years ago or nine years ago I used to make sixteen of eighteen dollars; and I am now making twelve or thirteen.

Q. They are making cheaper stock? A. Yes, sir, that is not my business though.

Q. The leather is not as good? A. The leather is not as good; that is the matter.

Q. And do you know how much it is costing them? A. No sir.

Q. Where do you live? A. Gloversville.

Q. How long have you worked at Littauer's? A. I worked with the exception of seven weeks, since I am over to this country from the old country, at Littauer's.

Q. Have you any children? A. I have got two children.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Mr. Earl Dente.


E A R L D E N T E, residing at 5 East Center Street, Gloversville, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. How old are you? A. 27.

Q. Working where? A. Littauer's.

Q. Nine hours a day? A. From 82 to 9 hrs. a day.

Q. And you make how much a week? A. From twelve to fourteen dollars, when I am working.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. No, pull down cutter.

Q. Earning from twelve to fourteen? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does the pull down cutter make about the same weekly wage as the table cutter does? A. No, I don't think so. Not from my experience.

Q. The work is not nearly as fast? A. The work is so much poorer.

Q. What do you mean? A. In taxation.

Q. They tax you more for pull down cutting than in table cutting? A. The taxation is worse; I don't know how it is in table cutting.

Q. Is it worse now than it has been in the past? A. A great deal worse.

Q. How much did you used to make? A. Well I have made from fifteen to sixteen dollars.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you find it harder to live now? A. A great deal harder.

Q. Are you deaf? A. Well, a little bit deaf, but not much.

Q. What are your reasons for striking? A. Because of the factory conditions and the cost of living.

Q. And the fact that you are not able to get along? A. Yes, sir, and we think the taxation is unjust; it is more than anybody can bear at times.

Q. And can you get out the number of gloves out of a hide that they demand? A. No, you can not.

Q. Is there a system of fining at Littauer's? A. Why, I have not been fined, but I know of others that have.

Q. What is that for? A. It is for damages.

Q. For damages? A. Yes.

Q. And the damages result from trying to get out a large number of gloves from a hide? A. It is trying to get something from nothing; that is what the damages result from; you certainly can not get the gloves. And you are trying to get that out of nothing and that is where the damages come in.

Mr. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Mr. Harris Schwieb.


H A R R I S S C H W I E B, called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. Where do you live: A. 80 Division Street.

Q. How old are you Mr. Schwieb? A. 35.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any children? A. Yes, sir, seven children.

Q. Where do you work? A. At Littauer Brothers.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And make how much a week? A. I make on an average of about twelve dollars a week.

MR. ROGERS: What is that, we don't hear you?

THE WITNESS: I make on an average of about twelve dollars a week.

Q. Do you put in full times? A. About nine hours and a half a day.

Q. Does your wife work too? A. Not much.

Q. She has to take care of the children? A. Yes.

Q. Are you able to get along on your salary? A. No.

Q. How are conditions down there as to taxation? A. Well, I will tell you the taxation is like this; if you are to read the bible, how the Jewish race were told to go around and pick up straw for making brick, and that they would allow them to make the brick, and then they told them to go around and look for straw, that is just the way the taxation goes here; you get the skins and then you have to go around and look for fittings, you got to waste your time around the shop looking for the fittings.

Q. You mean you can not get your gloves out of the hide they are giving you? A. No.

Q. Where do you find these fittings? A. Well, it is hard to explain that, who is not in the trade, it is hard to explain it to him. Of course I can not talk so much English or otherwise it would take a lot of time to explain how it is with the skins and I haven't enough English to tell you.

Q. You have to go from one place to another and find pieces to make up the gloves? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is you go all around the factory? A. Yes, sir. The shop where I am they don't pay; I worked in two and in the other shop they pay.

Q. What do you mean? A. They pay for the fittings that don't match.

Q. Don't they fine you in Littauer Brothers? A. Not with me.

Q. Never fined you? A. No sir.


Q. How long have you been a cutter Mr. Schwieb? A. 12 years.

Q. How do your wages compare now with the wages you received in your earlier days for that work? A. They are rose.

Q. You don't make quite as much a week? A. No.

Q. The idea is that the price for your work is the same, isn't it? A. Yes, but skins are running poorer.

Q. Your illustration you made a minute ago about people trying to make bricks without straw; isn't that supposed to have led up to one of the first strikes in record? A. You mean the first strike in Egypt?

Q. Yes? A. That is what I think; is that what you mean?

Q. Yes? A. Yes.

Q. You have nine in your family? A. Seven children and me and my wife; nine.

Q. And you wages average how much? A. Well, about twelve; if I say twelve I may be less.

Q. What is the most you can make in a week? A. Well I can make seventeen dollars sometimes; and sometimes I can make eleven and nine; you see it is table cutting and I try to explain but I can not explain it to you what I mean, but if you could work, sometimes you can make more and sometimes the skins run poor and you make less, you see.

Q. Would you be satisfied with a settlement of this strike to receive an increase in wages similar to that which has been made in one or two of the shops here? A. Well I have to. Of course I got a big family. I couldn't be satisfied if they give me a quarter raise, and I tell you that a man who has got seven children now he is behind the times, but fifteen cents would help me; that is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

Mr. Dare.


W I L L I A M D A R E, residing at No. 30 Fifth Street, Gloversville, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Dare? A. I work for Littauer Brothers.

Q. As a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long do you work a day? A. Me?

Q. Yes? A. I am there a long, - from seven in the morning until six at night.

Q. Ten hours a day? A. Yes, sir, over that, if anything.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Oh, my wages would probably average along about seventeen or eighteen dollars a week.

Q. You are one of the fastest cutters? A. Well I am not particularly fast, but I am a very hard worker.

Q. Well, conditions in these factories do not strike you as being exceptionally hard, do they? A. Well, yes, because I do not earn any more wages than I did 17 years ago, and the cost of living has gone up nearly double.

Q. You haven't worked for 17 years as a table cutter? A. Well, there is this; when I worked down there I learned my trade as a table cutter.

Q. So you are not as well able to get along now as you were ten years ago? A. No, I should say not.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you any children? A. Three.

Q. Does your wife work? A. No, sir, she does not.

Q. What are your reasons for striking? A. To better my conditions.

Q. Well if the company could not pay any increase in wages, and if conditions were such that they could not, would you still be able to get along, would you not? A. Well, I would manage to get along the same as I have for years.

Q. Then, with a fifteen percent increase; would you then be satisfied? A. Why yes, I would be, if it was 15 percent increase, I think that would be all right.

Q. Would you then be getting the wages that your work demands; do you think? A. Yes, I think so.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.


Q. How do you work now; by the piece or dozen? A. I am working by the dozen, by the piece, yes sir.

Q. By the piece? A. Yes.

MR. McMANUS: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Mr. Gustave Walters.


G U S T A V E W A L T E R S, residing at 86 Third St., Gloversville, N.Y. called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. How old are you? A. 34 years.

Q. And you work where? A. Baxter, Moses & Lewis Co.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you any children? A. Three children.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. I can give you straight figures in a minute. I only got it for the last sixteen weeks, but it is straight every week. Of course I write my work on a little book that I have got in my pocket mostly and what I have in here corresponds with the sum I have got from the firm, every week; here, I have got for the last sixteen weeks previous to the strike; and it shows an average of $12.46 a week.

MR. ROGERS: How much?

THE WITNESS: $12.46 a week, and I got this here for sixteen weeks.


Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you work nine hours a day? A. Every day.

Q. Why are you striking? A. Because I think I am entitled to some more and I was advocating all the time to get together to better conditions. Of course, four years, I am in this country for not less than six years, since the first of April 1909, but conditions were better at that time and the cost of living was lighter than it is now, so we have found that conditions getting worse in every sense, in every case, every year and up to now and I am not going to stand it any more. No, I am a union man, but all the time I am a glove cutter, since 17 years and conditions can only be helped by getting together. I was advocating unionism all the time, not in the shop because of the boss but outside of the shops where I could reach my brothers and it was my idea to advocate strike and strike is the only way, as the experience of laboring men shows. We can always better conditions and therefore, I was in favor of the strike, and you can enforce more improvements in the conditions. If you gentlemen would like to hear some special things about this shop, I can furnish you with special items that ought to be made better in this shop.

MR. ROGERS: You go ahead.

MR. WITNESS: Would you like to let me take a piece of paper and pen?

MR. ROGERS: You go ahead.

THE WITNESS: The first thing is that in 1910, you know that already there was an increase of two cents on Chamois, suede and kids and six and a half on mochos. At the same time they took off five cents for bindings and now we have to cut them. Of course, we made up all these gloves with white or black bindings and they cut the gloves from the hies, from the skins, and you could probably bunch it together very easy, the bindings and the other things, but at the same time to start in with the taxation; it was higher and closer and the manufacturer seemed to think if we had no more binding to cut that we ought to get more gloves to the skin, and the taxation started in to be higher at the time and so we had to work harder than we had to before, and five cents, that is all.

Now, on the first of this year, I expect to have 28 to 30 inch bindings to each pair, or the same price it was, with the regular bindings with eighteen inches and the eighteen inch binding of the glove could be cut up by two pieces and where it is 28 to 30, if you have four long pieces, all, consisting of 15 inches or one nine inch and one six, or one seven and seven, or two sevens and it is different and the taxation was the same. But with the change in the length of binding and so on, I have been told in the shops that they will have a loss of two pairs a week sometimes on account of the binding. Of course the taxation was so high that we had to look around for pieces for these bindings, where sometimes they cut long gloves, they get some scraps and they go around and look for getting these scraps, these pieces, and they get them and they cut the gloves and then they have to fit them with the black and white. You must have everything right or it wouldn't match.

Now, in regard to cutting the automobile glove, or any of the fancy gloves. When they put little pieces on what they want, gauze, straps and buckles, so sometimes I would say several times it was not right, but there was no change; we got very few patterns to cut those pieces, so you have to hunt around to where those patterns are and sometimes they were taken out of the shop, so you get your piece and go to the box where it is punched and you find no patterns there, so you went back again and so all the time there is certainly lost time taken out of you.

I am especially, in some cases interested. I got special work many times, and they would give you one pair, a special pair of gloves to make, they have something extra you know, suppose, for one pair they pay 15 cents, and for more than twelve buttons they pay 25 cents, and it happens every time they give you a skin for a pair and when you come to cut through it, you cut it and it don't measure, and the man in the shop he knows what they expect for a certain style, so he will have to go in again and have to take the skin back. So you have to take the skins and look them over for probably ten minutes, take them back and change the skins, and have to do the work again without getting any pay for them and you are losing all of the time. It is so not only with the single pairs, but it is the same with lots. I got a lot of a dozen or fifteen pairs of long gloves when there was three or four pairs, or three or four skins that did not have the value there. You can not look them over, and just take one skin out to make a glove. You take one skin and if it is not right down you go and get another and so on and so forth and it is on your time, you are losing your time.


Q. How much time would you lose that way in the week? A. Sometimes we get straight work and do not do so much, then sometimes we get this work, but I could show you items. Sometimes we get lots. Sometimes we get a bunch of them, quite a lot, and sometimes I get a lot and then, only ten or eleven, and other times it might be two lots, but in my factory it is small lots; you see four lots is big lots here, but in other places it is medium or small. I have been told the other day that I have to have 28 inch bindings, and they refuse to pay for it extra and certainly we ought to have pay for it, and otherwise, if you don't look out, you go out, and they told me that several times when I object to have bindings, any special lots, I could make the tacks. If you don't look out, out you go. I was not told by the boss, but by the middle man, that gives out the skins, it was the middle man. It wasn't the talk I had with the boss, but if you don't look, out you go, but I have been in other shops here, and it is about the same.

Now here about this five cents, the men in the shops wanted it in June I think, and they thought they would have this five cents, they thought it was the time to do it and started to do it and they were entitled to it and we got together in the shop meeting and we got a committee and we went down as the committee and one of the firm was absent in Europe, he was the one in the cutting department, and the other man the one in the making department, he was the one, and they were in conference with him, and Mr. Bachner, the man of the cutting department, is expected back the first of July, and he would bring up the case again about this binding and he says I will take your stand and I will fight it out for you to get five cents and we never heard a word and I heard now that they are paying it to them that remain to work, and I think that is the most I could tell.

In regard to fines, I could not tell much, because I never got fined, I never would pay anything of that in my life. Of course, I do my work as straight as I can, and if I don't make a mistake I don't have to pay for it. Of course, I know there are many cases, where you have got to pay fines for damages, even though it was not their fault.

Q. How many hours a day are you in the habit of working? A. Any day?

Q. Yes? A. Nine hours at least. I am very steady, sometimes I do not and sometimes if I am in the shop and at work I worked nights. I never go home sometimes to dinner. If I lose a few minutes I work a quarter past twelve or eleven or late at night. I commence work a little after seven and work to twelve and a half and take a half an hour for lunch.

Q. Is there anything of a rush in the factory at times, that is, do they work long and at other times on half-time; do you wish to have steady work right along, full time, do you have steady work? A. Why, I do steady work most of the time. I am here in Gloversville and except a couple of weeks around Christmas and I think in the first part of January, they lay off 43 men and the others work at short time, I think they kept on the married man, and I think they allow $12 and for the single men $10, couldn't work very much at that time, because it was dark early, about four o'clock in the afternoon, and you have no right to use the light.

Q. But generally speaking you have always been able to work full time, haven't you? A. Oh yes, except this short time and in summer 1913, you would be allowed to work as long as you could, some were there at five o'clock in the morning and work until half past seven and eight, because I said ten hours a day is enough. I like to shorten my hours. If I couldn't earn a living in ten hours, I will hang myself.


Q. How long have you worked in this county, six years? A. Yes, since the first of April 1899.

Q. And so you are working in the business 17 years? A. Yes, sir. I am a German.

Q. Where did you learn it? A. I learned my trade in 1897 and from 1897 to 1899 I worked in Germany and Austria sometimes.

Q. And is the taxation system over there as stringent as it is here? A. It is much different there. In many shops there is no taxation at all, in Germany, and we all have to shave our skins, and in some shops they take the skins themselves for shaving; different shops they could not make them; and so they are shaved in some shops before taken out, and in some shops they take them and do their own shaving, but no special ones in any; it is easy.

Q. And you serve five years at the trade as an apprentice? A. Three years.

Q. Three years? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you served three years here in the shops here and the apprenticeship for three years also? A. No, sir I didn't tell it that way.

Q. How many apprentices in your shop? a. Out in our shop we have two or three, and that is all. And you know, three learn the trade now. That is many less than five years ago. I don't wonder they don't and I wouldn't get to be one now, because if I had a son able to get out and do anything at all, I would not learn him glove cutting.

Q. They haven't as many apprentices now as they had five years ago? A. No.

Q. That is, not learning the business, they haven't as many learning the business now? A. No. I know in the same shop five years ago there were six to eight apprentices and I think there are only two now. That is all I know of.

MR. DOWNEY: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Mr. Samuel Spares.


S A M U E L S P A R E S, residing at No. 7 Helwig St. called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work Mr. Spares? A. I work at Blackner, Moses and Lewis Co.

Q. How old are you? A. 49.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been at that? A. How long was I a table cutter?

Q. Yes? A. Well I started to learn my trade in 1880.

Q. Did you serve an apprenticeship? A. I served an apprenticeship of five years in England.

Q. How long have you been in this country? A. 23 years.

Q. In this same factory? A. No, sir, I have been in this factory seven years and one previous to that eight years.

Q. Where was that? A. H.W. Rose & Son.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Well I got my amounts here and I add them up and it $11.52 a week.

Q. That is for a nine hour day? A. Yes, sir, nine hours a day. I never work more than nine hours a day.

Q. How is that? A. In the shop where I am working, all this past winter, we were not allowed to work only as long as it was light and the summer previous they gave the men the privilege to work as long as it was light and a great number of them availed themselves and that consequently made fair wages. The result was when the winter and fall came along, the work was lighter, it got darker than previously and sooner and we was denied the privilege to work ten hours a day. They had a man who used to come there and go all over the shop to clean up as early as four and half past four and five o'clock, and there was times when a man didn't have the privilege of working any more than seven and a half hours whereas previous to that they allowed the men to work thirteen and fourteen hours a day, so that they could sometimes show they earned big wages.

Q. You were not one of those men? A. No, I was not one of those men. I didn't allow myself to work any more than nine hours a day. Of course, when I was not working nine hours, I had to work less.

Q. Do you make as much money as you think you ought to make? A. No sir. In the first place, there has been a new thing instituted in this shop this year that did not prevail last year, that prevents my earning as much by at least three dollars a week.

Q. What is that? A. They have a man what we call a floor walker. He goes around. He is hired by the employer to speed everything up, to see what you are doing and how you do it. He makes reports on it, probably. Now, you heard some things said about the taxation. Here is an idea. We get a dozen of skins, and they expect us to get probably thirty-two pairs, sometimes thirty-four pairs of gloves out of that skin. This man is supposed to convey anything from us to the taxers for our benefit, as they tell us.

Q. That is, this floor walker? A. Yes, this floor walker is, we are supposed to go to see him and we say there is not 34 dozen of gloves or 34 dozen pairs in these skins and you can not get over thirty-two. He says, the other man that had the first lot like that got 34 pairs and a little more sometimes, and if he doesn't tell that, he says, the boss wants to get 34 pairs and he will lose money if you don't get 34 pairs of gloves out of that skin and he intimates that you are losing the boss two pairs of gloves. Consequently are you in the fear that you are going to be discharged if you do not get that amount of gloves out of the skin. You see that it is all averaged, and the man who gets his average, and gets something that it is impossible for him to get, if he doesn't get it after the average has been made that way, he is marked man.

Q. And that applies to every one in the mill? A. That applies to every one that works in the same business I am in. Others, I do not know anything about. That is the prevailing condition and for that reason you go to work and get 34 gloves, pairs, as they are marked and as they say you must get them. And when you finally get them cut you may cut 34 pairs of gloves out and that will be nearly three dollars a day, but then when you have cut it you have got to go and find thumbs to match it and it takes you hours to finish that 34 pairs of gloves. It takes you hours to go around and take things off of your neighbors. You must rub it down and you match it and if it don't match wrong, it has to be matched and made the same, and then after that grease dries out, it is not the color in two or three weeks, it is not the same, and they bring it back to you and they say it is poor work and they have to charge that and they charge you damages for the very thing, trying to get something for them that they ought not to have, and that is one of the principal things, that and the low wages that has brought on this strike.

Q. And if this taxation system was arranged differently you think that would meet or do away with the grievance? A. If it was, yes. This system will undoubtedly continue, because they will always have this very same idea, and they will tell you straight that if they don't have this system that you are robbing them and you will cut their skins up to waste. That is the idea. There may be a few men in the shop that will cut the first batch of these skins, they get the first batch of these skins, and they will give out probably five or six single lots to different men, and on one or two occasions I have been the man selected. There may be 34 dozen in these different lots, but the man who follows you can not get 34 because the skins are graded so you can not get 34 pairs. You are what might be called a trial horse, and it takes a man doing the best he can all the time to hold his job, and this is a thing that is losing him the time, he does not get paid for it.

Q. Well, would you make enough money if you could work without that system of taxation? A. If the taxation was not so hard, it would relieve to the extent that it would not be so hard on you. You would know when you were done. You have to put everything into the glove, and if there is something that does not go into the glove, something that you cut off, you have to turn that in. You have to put everything in to complete and make up the pair of gloves. Now sometimes there is something lost. In that case you are held responsible for it. The girls, take a piece of your fittings to try the machine one, after they have oiled them in order to work on them, they run in a piece of your fittings. Well they come right back to you and they say there is so much short on this pair of gloves. Consequently you are held responsible to make that up. That takes some of your time and you get nothing for that. That is another grievance that we have against the manufacturers.

Q. And you feel in addition to this increase in wages that this taxation system ought to be cut down a little? A. I would like to see it, but I do not see how it can be done. Now, I was in the room, when you spoke to a German here in regard to the taxation system in Germany. I worked there. I worked five years in Germany. They marked the skins there, and you can depend on what they mark as being fair. The pairs are marked.

Q. The number of pairs are marked? A. The pairs are. That is their system. But in these shops here they don't do that. They don't employ a man to do that. They leave you to do it. You are the man that takes the skins, inasmuch as you cut the gloves and you are taxed for a certain number of pairs and you have got to get that number of pairs out of the skin or else you are taxed.

Q. They tax the skins? A. They tax the skins. They take the skins and give them to you on the strength of what others have cut from those skins. You must produce that certain number of dozens from a certain lot of skins, if they are there or not. He tells us, now, these skins will produce 34 pairs and you must do it, and if not you are robbing the manufacturer. You have got to get out so many pairs of gloves, so many dozen, according to the facts, irrespective of whether they are there or not.

Q. How does a fifteen cent raise hit you? A. How does a fifteen cent raise hit me?

Q. Yes? A. A fifteen cent raise would hit me better than some people because I have no family, so consequently I can get along better on a fifteen cent raise than some of the other people, but I would like to see us get what we asked for, because we don't ask anything unreasonable.

MR. ROGERS: That is all. We will call Jacob Pitonberg.


J A C O B P I T O N B E R G, residing at 8 Little Street, called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work? A. Previous to this I was employed at Lehr & Nelson.

Q. That is as a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you worked at table cutting? A. 16 years.

Q. How long at Lehr & Nelsons? A. No, sir. I worked there five years.

Q. Where did you work before that? A. Myers & Sons.

Q. Have you formed any idea as to a comparison between the two places. Myers and Lehr & Nelson's? A. From the little experience I had in Lehr & Nelson it would be hard for me to say, but my personal knowledge is that nearly all the shops in Gloversville are nearly alike.

Q. Nearly all the same, taxation is high? A. Nearly all of them in Gloversville, outside of Fownes. Of course, they claim that is a little better shop.

Q. Have you worked there? A. No, sir.

Q. But you have heard about it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you formed any idea as to why that is a better shop? A. From what I heard from the boys working up there, the tax is more lenient, they don't expect as much of the men and the damages that we have, they never have there, and the working conditions are better. I could tell you more about Myers Sons, because I was almost raised in that factory.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. That all depends.

Q. When you are working steady? A. Well, we don't have all we can do. We have all we can do at times and then we have times that it is slow.

Q. Do you know during the year how much you averaged? A. Well this year has been an average, that is for me. I have averaged about, well, I consider I am not fast, but I will make, I am a medium cutter, a pretty steady cutter, and I don't believe I have averaged 13 dollars this year.

Q. You don't believe you have averaged $13 a week this year? A. No.

Q. That is, a nine hour day? A. I work ten hours.

Q. That applies both to the present factory and to Myers? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any children? A. Three.

Q. Does your wife work? Well, my wife helps me out at times when I felt like saving, when I try to save a little money, why she helps.

Q. Is that the rule here in Fulton county? A. That is the rule here in Fulton county and in Gloversville, a good many of the women have to work and if it weren't for the women it would be hard to make a living.

Q. I don't suppose you have anything to save? A. Well, what I saved last year I ate up this year and I assure you if it was not for my wife helping me out a little, I couldn't save anything ever during any of the periods, not when there is lots of work, and when we work twelve hours a day.

Q. You feel that conditions are worse now than they were eight or ten years ago? A. Conditions are worse this year than they have ever been and have been worse previous to the strike.

Q. And the strike came on because you could not get along any longer? A. The men felt they could not hold out any longer. We have been very active for three years to get an increase. Only last year we had a demonstration, we appointed our committees and thought to make easier our conditions and they told us, practically the same as they told us three years ago, that there was no time for it, and that when conditions warranted it they might consider a raise, but not at the present time. I was on one committee three years ago that went to see Mr. Littauer and he talked with us over an hour. One question he brought up to us was, or to the boys was, he says, boys, when you ask for a raise, why do you always ask for a ten or fifteen cents raise. Why don't you ask for enough to make it worth while.

Q. And that is what you did at this time? A. Well sir, we asked for 25 cent and 20 cent raise this time, which is no more than that which we should have.


Q. How much did you ask for three years ago? A. Why, I understand three years ago, we had a schedule made up of different prices on different kinds of gloves and we submitted that schedule to them but they rejected it, and this time we asked for a flat increase.

Q. Well, I suppose the reason they rejected it, was the reason you didn't ask for enough? A. I don't believe that was so. You see they rejected it because they simply didn't want to give it to us. The manufacturers in Fulton county have never been on record as wanting to give the cutters anything unless they fought for it. We received an increase in 1897, but we had to fight it for ten weeks to get it and that was after we all voted for the protective tariff, as Mr. Littauer instructed us to do; he instructed us to vote for it, and get the protective tariff, and we got the protective tariff and then we had to turn around and strike ten weeks to get a ten percent increase.

Q. During this protective tariff period, in 1897, you got no increase whatever? A. We received an increase and a reduction at the same time. We received an increase of two cents on suede and kid and six and half cents on mochos. At the same time they gave that they turned around and took off five cents for silk lining. That is all the increase we have had in 17 years and the last two or three years they have cut us down five cents on binding and that is practically no trouble for us when we are cutting our gloves and are fitting them. We can cut our bindings at the same time and they have cut that out and they taken five cents off for that and they have turned around and put it on the length of the glove and also made it harder for us in this reason. When we get a skin that we have to cut three pairs of gloves out of, we figure, if the skin is small, we have to figure where we are going to get our forches from. We need these forches for three pairs of gloves. Then there is four pieces of binding and the two thumbs. The thumbs have to be as good as the trank, and we have to try to get our thumbs out of the same piece of skin, that is, that is, out of the center of the skins instead of the side. If you cut them off of the flanges or of the edges they will tear and show up poor when the glove is finished. We figure in cutting the skin, where it is 3' top or 2 and 10 top that we have nothing left for forches. When they put it 32 top you see we are running up to the top of the leather or the edge and what falls off is not good enough for binding, and if it is there for binding, we don't use, because we don't need it in that class of work. That makes it so hard in my shop where the tax is so bad. There has been the most discontent there and in Baxters because the tax is so bad, when you get a five dozen lot and work hard and finish your lot and get to figuring how much fitting you need you may be 13 or 14 pairs of forches short and you start in fitting it up and it takes you three or four hours to do that, to fit up that lot, and them you see, you lose all that time, and it is practically one lot after the other, and you are practically all worrying and busy while you are there. Now, I don't say these conditions generally exist all over the county. I understand that the Johnstown cutters are more fortunate in that respect. They don't expect so much of them. Of course, I am in a position to know about Myers shop, because I have practically been raised in that shop since a boy and I served my trade there and I know how conditions were when I learned my trade and how they are today.

Q. What are the average wages they pay a boy to learn the trade of table cutting? A. Well, there is no such thing. He is not supposed to get anything. It is always left to the generosity of his tutor. When I learned my trade all I got was my board and my clothes. Of course a boy will probably get fifty cents a week spending money but I assure you generally that the most of the boys who are learning the trade have to sell Sunday papers on the streets here to get spending money.

Q. They get hardly any salary at all? A. Hardly any.


Q. Aren't their names carried on the pay roll? A. No, sir.

Q. Not the apprentice boys? A. Not the apprentice boys.


Q. So they practically give three years of their time to learning the trade and then make twelve dollars a week? A. If he averages twelve dollars a week he is a pretty good cutter, through the year, including the slack time. They must take on thing into consideration here and that is in this trade we don't always have prosperity, and as soon as it gets dull in the business the cutter will fall out just as if he was shot. They start to discriminate against this work at once. The foreman are instructed to go through the tranks of the gloves and examine everything and in the glove business, it is a very peculiar business, and they will cut out the gloves, and you take the skins, and the skins have many flaws, and those flaws, when the glove is finished they will show. The flaws will show up better in the glove than in the trank or in the leather itself and if there is a flaw in the top of the glove or in the thumb, the cutter is the one that is responsible. You see his responsibility does not end. In fact there is no end to it. Even after the customer buys the glove, and if it should happen to rip a little around the seam or tear a little the cutter is responsible. His own trade and his own good name as a worker is nothing and if he works in that shop every so long and when a glove comes back from the store, if it is his, if it is numbered according to him, it is brought to him and he is held responsible for it. Consequently when it gets slack in the factory the cutter, all the ambitions they have, all the desire they have to make money is taken right out of them and they will drop out and a man who will make perhaps during the right period, who will make $3.50 a day will drop down to a $1.50. He will get scared, and he will begin to watch his work and be careful and afraid. Not ambitious to work when it gets slack and they have to throw them up and you take a good cutter, a good man, a hard worker, if he averages twelve or thirteen dollars through the year including bad times he is doing good.


Q. Do you know anything about this fining system that is in vogue in some of the factories? A. I know a whole lot about it, because I have been where it is practiced extensively.

Q. Tell about it in your own way? A. Well, this fining system has been in existence only in the last six or seven years, that I can remember of, in Myers. I worked in Myers shop 15 years ago and we never used to know of anything of the kind, but of late years, right after the last labor fight we had here, the shop seemed to become more discriminating. They seemed to put more and more upon the cutter, and now, the tranks, when they leave the cutters hands, they go in what is called the punch room and there they are examined, they are supposed to be examined by a man, there is a man who examines the tranks, and if they pass that examiner they are supposed to be good. Well, if the examiner sees any flaw or fault in that trank or in that thumb or in the fitting, he calls the cutter in and shows it to him. If that pair of tranks passes him with his approval and it goes to the making department, and from there it goes to the finishing department, and then it is examined by the people in the shipping room, before they are put into the boxes, and even there, if there should happen to be something wrong with that pair of tranks, it is turned into the superintendent's office and he is the man that sees it, and he comes right upstairs, with them, and it is shown to the man that has looked over the pair of tranks, and instead of he taking the blame, the man who examined it and he naturally ought to, because he passed them, they immediately called the cutter in and they show him that pair of gloves and they say what kind of work is that? Do you call that table cutting and they charge him up so much and so much for them and then they settle it and when you go down to get your pay envelope you are fined so much for a pair of gloves. Only about two months after I leave Louis Myers & Sons and go to Lehr and Nelsons there is a man working on the same table with me, he paid for three pairs of gloves $2.25. They were very lenient with him though. They charged it up at the rate of 75 cents a pair. The following Sunday I was up to his house and he had the gloves and showed them and I couldn't find anything wrong with them. They were a little soft and that is all I could find. Naturally when the skin is soft, when the glove is made up, the glove is going to be soft too, feels soft. That man did not make that skin. He simply cut the gloves but he had to pay for the three pairs of gloves. That same week there happened to be a man there, if you wish to, I can mention his name, because I am under oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

Q. Is he a man out on strike? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Out on strike? A. Yes. He is a poor man and he has seven children. He was a hard worker.

Q. What is his name? A. His name is Saunders, worked at Louis Myers & Sons. They charged him for damages. I am not going to say how much because I am not sure, but I know he paid for damages and it was more than a dollar, some cutters are not inclined to tell, they don't tell at all. They feel ashamed that they should have to pay damages and they would not speak about it, but they had to pay nevertheless. Many of them have spoken of it to the rest of the cutters at the time it happened.


Q. Don't you think there are many instances which justify the manufacturer in charging up the damages on the worker? A. I don't. When you hire a man to examine your work after it leaves the cutting room and it passes through his hands, I think the responsibility of the cutter should end with him.


Q. Would it be possible for some other members of the craft, or the people engaged upon some other parts of the glove, to commit that damaged that the cutter would be blamed for? A. It has happened where a maker has made up a glove crooked and put in fittings wrong and there has been cases where this glove would come back to the cutter and they would blame him for it and many of the boys here can vouch for my statements that these have happened and that there have been men discharged for that too. But, gentlemen it is just as I say, they won't discharge a man if they are busy, but when it is slack, they will dig down just as deep as they can and bring the faults to you. They will dig down and get an excuse to send a man away. They would rather discharge ten men claiming that their work was not right, then getting the reputation of laying off 17 or 20 cutters every so often.

Q. They generally resort to finding fault in slack times and lay t he men off in slack times. They would rather do that then discharge them for lack of work? A. They surely would. Now, there, about a month before the strike, they have a system in Louis Myers & Sons, where they keep an average book. Now on of the foremen, or one of the examiners, he keeps that book. It is made up with care or supposed to be, and every cutter, whatever he cuts through the year, the average of what he cuts from his skins is in that book. Now, we will say a man comes out five pairs short on one lot, and the next lot, the next lot is a little bit better, and he gets in one pair over. Of course, the cutter is pretty shrewd and he is trying to get even. He knows five pairs are against him and if gets a better grade of leather he will try to clean that up, and have a pair, an extra pair of gloves in his favor. Everything goes in that book, shorts and over. Now, this book, is kept by this man, and he will call in a cutter and he will say, so and so, you come in here. See that? That is your average. Let us count and he will count from the top to the bottom and he will say after he counts up, when he gets down to the bottom, now here you are 65 pairs short or five pairs short or whatever it is and there is only a very few pair there in your favor and he says, look out, be careful and you just bet that man knows what is coming to him. And he calls in some other man, some man who is short and he says to him I am going to show you what John Brown has got, I am going to show you his average he says. He says you see that there cutter. Well sir, in those eight months, you see he is a way ahead of you. Now you look out. I am a friend of yours. I am telling you. Now, that poor fellow goes out and he can't eat his dinner because of thinking of that.

Now, gentlemen, I am telling you these facts under oath, because I have no fear of these people. I am telling you the gospel truth. I am telling you the conditions existing in one of the banner shops of the United States, why you can see "Myers Make" advertised all over the United States and you know the name and the reputation that they have. Of course, I can not tell you anything about another one, but men who work there will tell that. I will leave it to men who work there. I am telling you of Myers & Sons.


Q. The taxation system is very exacting isn't it? A. Twenty years ago we didn't know what it was, to tax the skins Fulton county. The cutters working here used to be able to make good wages and the people were trusted by the bosses. They knew when they had a good man and they knew they could depend upon him, and they could give any men the most expensive material they had and they knew if they gave John Smith that skin that John Smith is going to get every pair of gloves out of that skin that he can.

Q. Let me ask; under the present conditions and the number of employees that there are in the factory, can they have such dealing with the men; can they depend on them to that extent? A. Most of the table cutters are conscientious. I have seen cutters bother for two hours to fit up a pair of gloves. They would run around to get fittings for gloves and they knew if they did not do it it would be just the same. I myself, although I am fighting for my interest as a working man, I would not so work as to deprive a manufacturer of a pair of gloves under any condition. I have worked that way always and every apprentice when he learns his trade, the man who teaches him, says, get what is in the skins and he would be ashamed of himself, as a good honest workman, if he cheated his employer in his work and the manufacturers know that better than we do. This taxation system is merely a product of the competition that exists between one manufacturer and another. In a strike they are united against the workmen but in normal times when the manufacturer is trying to squeeze out as many gloves as he can, he does so, so as to compete satisfactorily with his competitors. In regard to a man getting an average out of a skin, gentlemen, I can say that every man that goes into a factory, and who works, wants to hold his job, and he is doing his best for the boss to get as many gloves as he can out of a skin.


Q. Can you tell us anything about the amount of dozens that the pull down cutter can cut inna day as compared with a table cutter? A. Well, pull down cutters are just the same as table cutters in one respect. Some men are faster than others. I couldn't, nor no one else could tell you just exactly what a pull down cutter cuts unless I worked with him on the same table and under the same conditions, so I could see just how the man does his work. Of course, a pull down cutter has to cut more than a table cutter in order to make a living.


Q. Do you know how the average would be? A. No, I do not. I could not tell you the average of a pull down cutter. I have never been interested in that. Unfortunately I have overlooked that and I could not state positively what it would be.


Q. The work of a pull down cutter is faster than that of a table cutter isn't it? A. Well, the work is not so particular and it is faster because they have a different system of cutting. They cut crosswise, or, they did up to late years, but of late years with pull down cutters it has been almost impossible for them to cut crosswise the way it was done in the past and they have to practically cut their skins the way the table cutter does. I have seen them work that way because they could not work any other way on account of the material being so poor.

Q. Is there a difference in the quality turned out by a pull down cutter and that turned out by a table cutter; that is, does it sell for a lower price? A. Well, I will say that there are a great many styles of gloves that a pull down cutter cuts that we do not, but that they do cut some which are the same. You take a cheap ladies' cape or kid and the pull down cutter cuts the same style and I have seen them cut quite often.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Louis Wallach.


L O U I S W A L L A C H, residing 50 Church Street, Gloversville, N.Y., called and sworn as a witness testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Wallach? A. Bachner, Moses & Lewis Co.

Q. How long have you worked there? A. 72 years.

Q. As a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Well I am considered to be one of the fastest men in the shop and since January last my wage would be $12 to $16.50. I am considered one of the fastest men in the shop.

Q. You heard some men testify that they got $19 and $22 a week? A. At Bachner & Moses?

Q. No, I guess they work in Johnstown? A. I heard some of them, but I am talking about Bachner & Moses.

Q. That would be the most where you work? A. I can not tell the exact number, but probably some do make as much as that and I feel that conditions since last January that they have got worse than ever before.

Q. In what way? A. In the way of the taxation, and the system of the work. You work harder and then the stuff they are buying. For instance, I will give you a little instance. There was a new style of work which they have called washable mochos, which involves a new operation.

Q. Now these washable mochos although it has the same length of mocho which was on the same schedule previously for $1.00 a dozen, it is harder work. They have been making it and they left it as a $1.00 a dozen so that it is really impossible for a man to make more than a $1.50 or $2.00 a day. This was brought about by reason of the fact that it was harder to work and it took longer to do it. As one mentioned before we have held a meeting and discussed the matter of the washable mochos and many other troubles which are always in our shops. The meeting was held and they decided to send a committee to the boss and ask them for 25 cents increase on washable mochos, a dozen, and 20 or 15 cents on washable capes. Those are new kinds. The committee decided on a three dollar a day rate if they didn't want to pay by the dozen, they said let us make it $3.00 per day rate. The committee went down to the bosses? Two of the firm were in Europe. The only one that was left, was Mr. Moses, and Mr. Moses gave us a very cordial reception and told us how glad he was to meet a committee of his own men and he said he is willing to let us have a half a day's time and for us to take as much time as we wanted. We were seated in the office and we talked gently to him and told him of the troubles in the shop and also of the five cents for bindings for which we have asked for an increase, that is, the late schedule which the manufacturers made themselves without asking our advice, and this provided five cents for long bindings, which they cut to 28 or 30 cents and we asked that we should be paid five cents extra. Now, remember this is their own schedule. The first of January, after the Christmas holidays, when we went back we were told by the floor walker, the man who acts for the boss that we should either cut a 32 or 4 inch top long without binding and get five cents off a dozen or cut regular lengths, the regular tops as we cut before and 30 inch binding without getting extra for the work. So, we were told to decide between those two. Some of the cutters consented to take that and they took the consent of a few cutters as though they were of the whole cutters. I personally happened to be in New York and I came back and started to work and they gave me a lot of work and they told me I have got to cut the long gloves, mens, boys and ladies and not to get paid, and I asked why, and they said that was the way since January first. I accepted it because I had to, and I have been working that way. Many of the cutters have since worked on washable mochos and capes and they so cut the bindings. They said that the washable mochos called for an exceptional amount of work and that they were falling behind in their earnings and that the cutter is not being treated right by the manufacturer, and they said that if they asked for five dollars a day it would not be enough. It is impossible to work better and longer and make better wages. And he says, gentlemen, they are almost already done and only a few dozen left, and you will cut them by the day. As to the binding, I don't think it is just to me that I should interfere with Mr. Bachner's department. He is only going to be two weeks away and I will talk with him when he returns. You don't have to walk down. I will take up your interest and I will fight for your increase of 25 cents. We didn't get any more washable mochos for a while, that is, until Mr. Bachner, himself came and when he came instead of giving us the raise by the day, as agreed, he called me in there, being considered the fastest man in the shop, and he said the difference wouldn't be so distinguished or so marked, that is, in comparison to the average wage and we will find out if it is. He says, you say it is less than the average per week but you are mistaken. As a matter of fact, I, myself, and others have made five dollars less this year than ever before. Now, that is less than five dollars. It was a reduction of from four to five dollars a week. Then he said he was going to give us new patterns; it is not the same mochos; but washable mochos, but better ones and it is up to us to see how they will go and then, he said, we will tell how it works out. We will see how it works. But, when we started to work the mochos, we found they were the same on which Mr. Moses promised us $3.00. We said they are the same mochos that Mr. Moses promised us $3.00 and then, Mr. Bachner, he came in and he says, now sometimes you can fool Mr. Moses, but you can't fool me. I know what gloves are. He says, you do that to try to fool Mr. Moses, and he doesn't know anything about gloves anyway. Of course, we are going to stand for our rights. I personally said to Mr. Bachner, I will tell the same story to you that I told to Mr. Moses. I was one of the committee. We can not work these washable mochos at the same price. After he see that we were stubborn about it and not going to give in, he says, all right gentlemen, take it, and be fair with us and we will be fair with you. Get those out and we will be fair on the price. We got this work out in all fairness. He gave us a dollar and no more. Finally we went on and we got out a few and since then we have been getting out washable mochos at the same rate, we are getting a dollar a dozen, just the same as the others, and that means there is $3.00 and $4.00 less a week, and the taxation is worse on the washable mochos than on the others, and the work is much poorer than any other work, and that is not the trouble in our shop especially, but you will find that the pay envelopes of the fastest men who can sometimes make eighteen or twenty dollars are now drawing from twelve to sixteen dollars and a half a week. You will find this to be the condition on account of these facts.

Q. Is there anything else? A. I can make many statements as to conditions during the last ten years if you want me to.

Q. Conditions are worse now than they were before? A. Yes, sir, that is as far as we are concerned.

Q. And the general system of taxation is very poor? A. Yes, sir. We have protested against this system of taxation, and they told us it was to be improved but it never has been. It seems to me that it is a general condition which prevails all over Gloversville to have this taxation system and it is getting worse and worse. It has been, the conditions for the past ten years, while I have been in Gloversville, the condition has been as far as I have observed the condition, the conditions of the glove maker, it is going from bad to worse. It seems that the result of the strike of ten years ago is a great curse on the people. It seems to me that the manufacturers are taking advantage of us, we being weaker as a result of the strike and they are taking advantage of us. That is, because we are divided now. I say it is worse that civilized warfare at the present time. In civilized warfare the defeated country can not be oppressed. Because we have been defeated ten years ago we are oppressed and they are pressing us as much as they can. In my estimation it is not a matter of 15 cents. They can raise us more than that. It is a question of whenever they want to raise us whenever it is their pleasure to give us more they will give it to us. They want to bow our heads down and see us live as they see it. If they want to raise us all right, and if they don't all right. They would not give any skin dealer any less than his skins were worth, they have all the rights, we have got no rights. We have got to take what they give, and we have no voice or protest to make. The Republicans take it and vote for a higher tariff. They wanted us to vote for a higher tariff, as we have done, and we have got to do it. They have a republican senator at Washington, and we have got to march up to the polls and vote for him. They organized a parade in this city, and one of the most shameful things you ever saw, when all the girls and women and old men were fighting for a reduction in the tariff and we were said to be demanding a high tariff to save our homes and our jobs. And they asked us to sign a petition that were all lies and nothing else, stating that 80 percent of the men owned homes and houses. It was not true. We signed a petition that we were absolutely satisfied with our wages, and that was not true. We have been asking for an increase in wages right along, and we have not got it and when we signed that petition and sent it to Congress it was a perjurious statement, saying that we were absolutely satisfied; they were all lies. That is why we are out on a strike. They are trying to put us down. We are forced to do this. You take the most of the men who had the most courage to stand up for their rights as men, they refused to sign such a shameful petition and they refused to march because some manufacturer wanted them to do it, in favor of a higher tariff. That is the condition for ten years. Some of them are philanthropists, they will give thousands of dollars for charity, for hospitals. It seems to me that they are willing to give us charity than justice. They are great fine men in the public eye, always helping the poor men, and helping hospitals, but when it comes to helping us, it is different. I believe that they ought to try to do justice at home and give the working men better salaries, and it would be better than in giving money to hospitals and playgrounds and so on. That is the condition that prevails here, and as I say, it is going on from bad to worse, and they have put us in such a condition that we can not make a living.

And I can tell you one thing more, and that is, that if there would be men here who would be able to make a living, not only that but save a little money, which they are not now, which they are entitled to, they would not go on a strike. The fact that 1600 men went on a strike is proof that conditions are pretty bad, when you think of the fact that we could not get them together in the last ten years. This fact shows that the conditions are so intolerable here that they had to go on a strike.

I say furthermore that we are entitled to a living wage. Gentlemen, it is not fair to a skilled man. That is, a skilled man to learn the trade for three or four years and who gets nothing for it. The glove cutter is almost a professional man, and he is entitled to the wage of a skilled workman, or a professional man. If he gets $25 a week for his work it is not as much as the working strain that he puts to make up his gloves.


Q. You made the statement that they requested you to sign a petition and sign it down to Congress and some of the men refused to sign that petition. What became of those fellows? Were they discharged? A. No, sir, they were not discharged to my knowledge. They decided not to discriminate against them so far as I have private information. That is, not to discriminate the present time with these men who did not sign the petition.

Q. That is you don't get any more wages when they have a high tariff, a high protective tariff than you do when you have a low tariff? A. Well, it is practically unknown to us whether they have a high or low tariff. There are some industries which have steady time and there are some industries which do not work over six months, or so, and then it is part time. We are included in that respect, that is, there is three or four years work and then slack conditions, as we had four years ago, and I think that there was practically every factory or shop where the men were drawn out and they were working six and seven and eight months and those that remained were working on part time, and their wages were between seven and eight dollars a week. I was one of those fortunate men who remained at work and my wages were between seven and eight dollars a week a long time, and I want to add that at that time, when we had a slack time, they threw the men out on the street, and they have done another thing too. While they were throwing the table cutters on the street, one of the manufacturers advertised that he wanted pull down cutters. One factory threw out thirty table cutters and then advertised that he wanted pull down cutters, and they were not table cutters that came back but pull down cutters, that is, they took the table cutters in as pull down cutters. You see, they have families to support, and they have starvation and famine staring them in the face and these table cutters they accept the positions as pull down cutters, and they did the same work as they were paid for as table cutters before, and they paid them the pull down cutters prices. They didn't want table cutters, they said they wanted pull down cutters, but they were table cutters that took the jobs and as pull down cutters they got the 75 cent price.


Q. Are you married? A. Yes, and I have two children.

Q. You have two children? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you learn the trade? A. In Russia.

MR. ROGERS: That is all. I guess.

We will call Samuel Ziller.


S A M U E L Z I L L E R, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. Where do you live Mr. Ziller? A. 21 Market Street.

Q. How old are you? A. 34 years.

Q. 34? A. Yes, 34.

Q. Are you a table cutter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you work where? A. Bachner, Moses & Lewis.

Q. How much do you make a year or a week? A. I don't know by the week, but sometimes I make eleven, sometimes twelve, sometimes thirteen, sometimes eighteen and sometimes nineteen and sometimes twenty. I don't know the average, that is all.

Q. Oh, you sometimes make $19 a week? A. Yes, sir, I work in a shop 82 years, and because I work on that particular work, and because I spent more time, and they pay for the cutting just about 7 cents more, and I spend maybe four or five hours more on the dozen for cutting.

Q. You mean you work overtime? A. No, sir, of course, I can get for a dozen, a dollar a dozen and some for 95 cents, and he pay me 1.112 cents and there is more work because there is lots of trouble in the cutting. Of course I get a skin, and he takes that skin and punch them and marks them on the back side, blue mark on them, and they have been controlled in that way, you see, it is a guaranteed lot, and that is where I loose lot of time. I have got to get it out of there, and sometimes it is not hardly there.


Q. You do special work? A. Lots of cutters who have worked for years, they are said, they do these side jobs. You have got to have an experienced cutter for it. Of course, I worked for the last 22 years. I learned the trade in the old country, in Russian Poland. I work and get lots of experience and he gives me the chance to do good work.

Q. The best work in the shop? A. It was, for the long time, not the last time. I used to get the best skins, but not the last time. He gives me the poorest skins he has got.


Q. Are you satisfied with the money that you earn? A. No, I never satisfied, but before when I started to work, I was a single man and I used to be paid sixteen and seventeen dollars a week, all right but for the last couple of years, it has gotten poorer and poorer every week. Of course, I am poor. Sometimes I have had a doctor, sometimes a little sickness in the family, my wife says she has got to pay the grocer and the butcher, sometimes no coal or wood, and we have got no shoes and nothing and he tells me, the floor walker he tells me, he gives me the compliments that I am a good worker, but that is all, no pay.

Q. Does your wife work? A. No, sir, because she has got to tend to two small children. And then, we have sickness, and I have trouble the last three or four years. Last night I got a doctor. Sometimes I go from the home to the shop, may be I have my wife on the bed, and some sickness and I get so nervous I don't know what to do.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call Mr. Max Rosen.


M A X R O S E N, residing at 17 Market Street, Gloversville, N.Y., called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. Where do you work, Mr. Rosen? A. Bachner, Moses and Lewis Co.

Q. How long have you worked there? A. Oh, for ten years.

Q. Table cutter? A. Table cutter.

Q. And you make how much? A. My average wage would come to about $13 a week.


Q. I did not hear you; what did you say? A. My average wage wold come to about thirteen dollars a week.


Q. You sometimes earn $13 a week, sometimes less? A. Well sometimes might earn $15 to $16 and sometimes $10 and $11.

Q. Well, you are earning less; that is the average less than you did two years ago? A. Do I?

Q. Yes? A. Yes, I do.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes.

Q. Does your wife help you to work? A. My wife does a little work too.

Q. Do you want to make a statement as to why you struck and as to the conditions in your factory? A. Well, the same thing. The taxation is what makes it so you can hardly make a living. They tax the skins so high that you must get more gloves out of a lot than we can get.

Q. And your work is slower as result of that? A. Well, it is medium work, and on that kind of work I work harder.

Q. And you have to go around the shops to get pieces for your gloves? A. Most of the time.

Q. Where formerly you could cut this entire glove out of the one skin? A. It used to be that way.

Q. That is, they so tax the skins so that they will get more gloves out of the skins? A. Well it is this, they can get more gloves out of the skin than they used to.

Q. And it is harder on you because of that fact? A. Because it takes most of my time yes.

Q. You work nine hours a day? A. I work ten hours a day. The last year I have been working very hard.

Q. And have you got any money saved up? A. No, in fact I am a little bit in debt yet.

Q. Were you in debt when the strike started? A. Yes, and before the strike started too.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: That is all.

We will call John Desendels.


J O H N D E S E ND E L S, residing at 114 West 8th Avenue, Gloversville, N.Y. called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. How old are you Mr. Desendels? A. Why, I am 41.

Q. Where do you work? A. Bachner, Moses and Lewis.

Q. And you make how much a week? A. I should say my average wage would be between ten and twelve dollars a week, beginning this year, from the beginning of the year.

Q. And does that apply to this year or has that been your condition in past years too; did you make more money in the past? A. Last year, I did make a little more. Depends also a good deal on the shop where I work in.

Q. Have you always been with Bachner & Moses? A. I have been there up to this strike, I guess, for about ten or twelve weeks.

Q. Where were you before that? A. I was working for Lehr & Nelson.

Q. Could you make more money there or less? A. I made less money there, because conditions were worse. There is no system in that shop at all.

Q. What is there about that? A. In order to make a condition to that, I will tell you my story before you ask me any questions. As I understand the meaning of this Board, is not in order to help us fight out the 15 cent question, but as I understand it it is a meeting of the government of this state to see the people of this state in good and well fare condition in this state, like other men, that is the way I understand it. If that is true, I will stick to that point.

I started in to learn the glove business 29 years ago, when I was 12 years of age, and I have been in an apprenticeship for about five years, I think five years, and then I worked in the business for a short time and I came to this country, I think it was in 1891.


Q. Where did you learn the business? A. In Russia. I came to this country and I was looking for work and I stayed here for four years, and I didn't understand much about the world, but I could see that this is a place for people to live in, that people here could build up homes, have a little more chance, and that people here had a little more feeling than they had in the blackest of Russia, and for some reason, I got sick here, and I felt a kind of lonesomeness, to see my people again. I was homesick and I went there and I went in the glove business again. I was manufacturing gloves myself, buying skins and manufacturing myself, I was manufacturing gloves for other people, but not in this way, and I also used to buy ready made gloves, and I stayed there up until the revolution in Russia and on account of the Revolution I didn't like to stay there any longer, and I said I am going to break up that place there, and I will take my family and go somewhere else, and I went to Paris and stayed in Paris for three years and six months. I worked in Paris in the glove business, made gloves for somebody else not all the time. Then times got slack there, they slowed down, things weren't just right and then I said I am going back to the old place where I was in 1891, and I arrived here at this place with the idea of fixing up myself and I left my family in Paris at that time and it was about six years ago and next January, it will be sixteen years ago, with an idea of fixing up myself, fixing up my home and bring over my family and sister, I came with the idea I am going to live here and making a living and save a little money and also have a good home.

Well, I went to work and it was six years ago and I earned, well, I collected fair wages, somewheres around, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen and twenty dollars sometimes twenty-one, but that was six years ago, and as I was single here at that time, I saved a little money and I brought my family over here in six months and got a house together and I thought I was the luckiest man in the world, to get rid of the bloodiest Russia and come here and live in this country and make a decent living and fix up things in right shape, but it seems to me that things have been going on from worse to worse, and I could see that conditions were worse six years ago than what it was 22 years ago and I went out and looked for a job and the first place I happened to look for a job, I found that conditions were not what I could expect. I could see the faces they made at me when I asked for a job. It was a different place, and they tell me to go up and look for the foreman in a garret like thing, some hole, but I had to have a job and I had to go and look for him, and he says well, all right, we can put you to work, and I go to work and I see that it is different all around. I found that it requires more skill in the men and I could look at the industry in this town and see that it is a pretty well developed industry in this country than what it was in the past. I had my idea there was no other country on face of the world that could compete with the workmanship and power of this country. I don't know anything about prices, dates and things like that, but as far as workmanship was concerned, I was proud to say that the glove industry could put out just as good gloves today as in Russia or in France where I used to work, but I doubt if that is the case today because of the conditions. I think, in regard to the workmanship, if the work is satisfactory, that the workman ought to get good pay, because of the class of work done here. That is, you must pay for good work and in artisan is a glove cutter. A glove cutter can take a skin and make a good glove out of it in an artisan way and as he sees it ought to be done, but when I am cutting the glove, man come and tells me that they want it in a certain way. They want it done in their own way, but nobody tells me. I can do it in most places but in some cases the taxing is such that it is pretty hard to make a good glove. I said to myself, if you will give me credit, by giving me stock enough, I can do the best I can to cut the skins as I would cut it myself, and whenever there is three or four pairs ahead all right, and if there is three or four less I will get credit for it, that I have done the best I could, and I have done justice and I keep on working. Then, I go over to another shop. Went to work for Myers, Louis Myers, and I have tried to do my best there, but I can see a difference between Bachner & Moses at that time. One day it happens I am cutting a stock of gloves, and by my fault one glove gets spoiled in the second operation, you understand. You see, after the glove has gone through my hands, and it then goes over to another man, I must expect that if I have made any mistakes whatever, if the glove is not just right, that the man who is looking it over, if he finds anything wrong, I have an opportunity to fix it, but they didn't seem to care anything about that, and they discovered the glove, and bring it back to me. I see it is my fault. Of course, it has not been made out right by me and it is my fault and I am going to fix it and I went over to the next man who was given the same kind of stuff as me and I say I have got to have some scraps to make my glove right, or pieces, and if you got some spare tranks in your gloves, or in your skins, I will change it, and he says he will and the next day he saves several pieces for me and I gave him the scraps for fittings and I fixed it there, and I turned it over to the man who was looking over the gloves and it was all right. About two weeks later I see they charge me 25 cents for that piece of leather and I say what is that. I say, you got your gloves and there is no waste of stock like that and everything is all right and has been. He says, yes I can make it right, if you tell me the man who you got it from. Well, I says, I don't think I will tell you, so you can see there is no waste to it, but anyway it is a small thing and I don't want to have any trouble with that man, possibly you will get him up and put up something against him, but I say it is all right. But I had to pay the 25 cents any way, but I worked a little time longer at that place and went over to some other place.

Then, in that place and in the other places, and in Louis Myers Sons, we used to get white skin and put them in gloves in the style they were making. Well, the stock would come along in a bunch, and the stock used was such you were supposed to get out all the tranks there was in it. Well, if you want more of that stuff, to fit up your stock, you are supposed to go in there and get some more stock and fit up your tranks, or gloves, what you get out of the first lot, and I told the man, I said, that is a thing I don't like to do, because very often it happens that white skins as they come out, they will not match, the skins which were given out to fix up the pairs, that were sent out, they would not match, some are blue and some are yellow and some are not just white and the thumbs and forches would not match, and I say, I don't think it is the right way to do it, and I say, if I am going to get out my gloves, I will get it out of the same thing, and he says you will do it the way we tell you and I had to do it that way, and about three or four weeks later I find, when I get my card, and when I get out my pay, they charge me forty cents for damages for change in the fittings, then I went over to the man I said to him, that is not justice. You remember what I say, what I tell you before, it is not the right way, and you wanted to have me do it that way and when I do it your way, it is not my fault and now you charged me damages. He says, that is the rule of the shop. I say, as far as I know, I says, that is not a rule of the shop. This is against the law of the State. He don't know anything about the state laws, but that is our rule, and that was settled.

Again, in the very same shop, Myers Shop, the foreman calls me in and shows me a pair of ladies gloves. He says, look at that glove. I say, I don't see anything the matter with that glove. He says, look the stock over. I say, I don't see any fault with my thumbs and I show it to him, and he says, well, he says, you will have to pay for it. I says, you can not hold me up that way. I say, if there is any fault, I will stand by it. He says that and runs away. Finally I finished up my lot and I had another batch of skins on the table and I went over in there to the foreman and I said to the foreman, here is your skins back, and your lot is finished up and I will go away and I went away, and I was busy until next Saturday and go to get my pay, and I find that he takes out of my pay $1.25 damages and I say I would not consent to take it until I get my money in full and he says I can not help it, you can go over and see the superintendent and he shows me the gloves and he says, they will have to go in seconds, instead of number one. I says, what do you want me to do. He says, you will get the price for number seconds and I will stand the responsibility. I don't answer. I didn't have a quarrel with him. I left the office and I went over and told the city justice the story and he says, he has no right to keep any of your pay back, and he got hold of the man and he says, you have no right to keep the man's pay back, and he told him through the phone I should go down and get the money and I went down and I got it. Of course, that shop is dead to me. I can not go in there for any job, that is the way it goes on. That is as far as the taxing goes on and the system of the shop was concerned.

I was working with Lehr & Nelson and they would give out skins and then, he comes out with 16 out of 24 skins and you got to take them and count them and after you estimate them and don't find them, you take them back. They don't give it out two pairs or so many pairs, they call it skins and it doesn't look like skins to me. It looks like rags. So, I look at them. And then, out of sixteen skins, you have got to take 24 and take them back and dampen them and pull them down and then you find you are short and they keep you running up and down and they don't care anything about a man, his time and what he earns, and they don't respect a man in any way. But, as soon as I get the skins, and I look them over, and I see about six or seven pairs short in the skins, in the material, I take it back to the man and I say, they are short and he looks it over, and he says, do it the best you can.

I take it down stairs and start in on it and finally I have six or seven pairs short, and then there was about fourteen or fifteen fittings, I mean, forches and thumbs, and so on, and I was short on that, and I went up and I told him, there is about 14 or 15 pairs of fittings short, and how about that, and he says we haven't got any more of that style or that kind of leather and I say there is gloves already and how about the fittings and he says I can not help you. I can not help you at all. I say, I can not help it either. I says, you want to have them all the same, and where is your stock. He says, you take the gloves you cut and cut them up for fittings, and I says, I lose my time that way and that is the way it goes on. And it occurred to me so much with respect to the injustice we meet with in the shops, against the unsanitary conditions we have in the shops, and the hard work we get in the shops, ten years ago and now, that it almost makes the men go on a strike, and we have decided to do so. That is as far as I can state. That is my own mind.


Q. How much of a family have you now? A. I have got in my family four children, but, I should say, I am not able to make a living without I have my boys on the corners here selling papers. I want my boys in school, and one of them, I got a painter, and I wish I could give him a good education, but I can not do it. It is the low wages that keeps me down, keeps me back. I have two good Christian girls, one of them works for five dollars a week in a store, and another girl she is over 17 years and she makes a little money in the shop when there is work, and there is no work in the shop now. She works for Dempster & Place, probably about three or four months ago, and there was a scratch on the glove, and of course, it could not be stated exactly that it is made by her, and probably made by the maker, and probably by the cutter, but she was charged up sixty cents for that damage. It was a damage to a pair of gloves, and she was charged 60 cents for the damages. Of course, she had to leave or take it, and of course, it makes it hard, when she is not making enough now. When they say that to you, you know what you have got to do, and that is how it goes. You stay in the shops to five o'clock and a man goes around about half past five, the man starts to sweep, there is a lot of dust, a lot of unsanitary conditions, and right above your head, you have got rafters and lots of dust coming into your nose and lungs and the windows and shades washed, I don't know when, but I do know that they are dirty as rags, and they look almost worse than over some tables. When they deal with you they deal with you like an individual. That is all right. Whenever there is anything wrong, they ask you come into the stock room, when you see four or five foreman in there or around you, you look like a little lamb among lions and they will put questions to you and keep you in terror all of the time. Now, I don't feel that is right in a free country, a democratic country like this is. It may be all right in Russia, but they would not stand for it here. I am here to make a good living and live like a free man and make a decent living. Save a little money and have a little house, I am entitled to it because we are the people making this run and making this country big and strong, and I am entitled to make enough to enable me to live decently and bring my children up to be good christian children.

MR. ROGERS: That is all, unless you can think of something else, which you wish to state.

THE WITNESS: I don't exactly think of anything now, but I will probably think of something more, either today or tomorrow.

MR. ROGERS: That is all for tonight, gentlemen.


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