The Fulton County Glove Cutters' Strike of 1914 - Board of Mediation and Arbitration Hearings
The Glovers of Fulton County

The Glove Cutters' Strike of 1914: New York State Board of Mediation and Arbitration Hearings,
October 14, 1914 ~ Morning Session



[Original manuscript pages 544-624] 

In the matter of the striking glove cutters
of Gloversville, Johnstown and vicinity.
Hearing before the

Council Chamber, City Hall,
Gloversville, N.Y. Oct. 14, 1914.


P R E S E N T :

Mr. Wm. C. Rogers, Chief Mediator,

Mr. James McManus,

Mr. P. S. Downey,

A P P E A R A N C E S:

Mr. McMahon, for the Attorney General,

Messrs Baker & McDonald for the Manufacturers.


MR. ROGERS: We will proceed.

G. W. M A N D R E L L, called as a witness and being duly sworn, testifies as follows:


Q. What is your age, Mr. Mandrell? A. 58.

Q. Are you connected with the firm of G.W. Mandrell & Co.? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is that a corporation? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many cutters do you employ? A. About 30.

Q. Are there any working there now? A. Some, some; I guess there are about eight.

Q. Have you prepared a statement of yours, as requested by this Board and filed it with Mr. Baker? A. Yes, sir.

(Witness produces same)

Q. You have it here? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you prepare it yourself? A. My bookkeeper and myself did.

Q. Did you check it over so that you know it is true? A. Yes, sir. If you want further proof you may go down to the books there. They are all there. It is a new set, and by the way, there is only one year in there. The other books are for the firm of G.W. Mandrell and that firm went out of business in 1912 and the G.W. Mandrell Co. was formed, and so I have given you only one year, 1913.

Q. 1913? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the only statement you wish to make in connection with the conditions in your factory in view of the testimony and evidence given here? A. I don't wish to make any statement. I will answer any questions you ask me.

Q. You have covered the ground pretty thoroughly. You are unable to pay the increased rate? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Couldn't you get an increase of price for your gloves if you demanded it? A. I don't sell retail.

Q. Well, the prices of your gloves, but what do you call it, the wholesale price? A. The Jobber?

Q. Yes? A. Yes, it is the jobber.

Q. You could get an increased price, if you demanded it, from the jobber? A. That is a great question in my mind, whether I could or not.

Q. Do you think it possible? A. I did along in August, but I don't today.

Q. Why is that? A. Well, we heard a little spurt of business during the break out of the war and everything went up and it looked as if business was going to be good but since then it has dropped away and it is worse than it was before.

Q. Well, anyway, you have no way of knowing how long that will last? A. No, I have not. More than that we have been running on short time all the year and we limited the wages.


Q. What do you mean, limited the wages? A. Not to exceed $15 a week.


Q. What does that mean, that you gave a man only $15 worth of work a week? A. He is not supposed to earn over $15 a week. Some of them did earn over that you can see by the statement.


Q. And the cause, why you had limited work, was because you spread it out for all, is that the idea? A. Yes, sir.


Q. That takes how many hours a day, do you suppose? A. To earn the $15?

Q. Yes? A. Oh, they ought to do it in seven hours or seven and a half.

Q. Have you made any, - A. (Int) It makes all the difference in the world, in the cutter, you know.

Q. Yes. Have you any idea in your own mind, as to how your work per day, usually? A. I don't believe they work over 8 hours and a half at the outside.

Q. You have got some men who work more I suppose? A. Yes, a few.

MR. McMAHON: I guess that is all.


Q. How does the business for August and September this year compare with last year? A. Oh, it is poorer than it was last year. Last year was a good year and this year has been a very poor year all through the year.

Q. Do you know definitely as to the volume of business for August and September of this year as compared with August and September of last year? A. I don't know. I would estimate it was 65 percent.

Q. 35 percent less than last year? A. Yes.

Q. How much of your August and September sales were at an advanced price over last year? A. Well, we have about three orders. That is all we have, and that is an advance of six percent, and part of those have been cancelled since that time.

Q. Have you any statement that you wish to make in regard to the strike or any testimony which has been brought out here? A. Nothing, only I think you was a little unfair about the order of the evidence. You put on all, - I mean by putting on all the slow cutters. It showed us to a disadvantage, as if the labor was oppressed, whereas if you had put on a dozen cutters that we should pick out, which would show that they would earn from twenty dollars a week up, a week, rather than around $12, that is, some would earn as high as twenty dollars a week and more, I think it would have been better. Slow cutters naturally do earn less money.

Q. We made an effort in this testimony which we received from the cutters to get neither slow nor fast ones, but the average ones. We tried to get the average so that we could successfully ascertain the average wage. And we think with the testimony and with the books that we can do it, that is, that it will be shown in a comparison with the testimony and the actual figures of the payroll? A. Yes, you have got the evidence.

Q. Yes, the figures which we have produced here and which we have discovered? A. Yes, sir.

Q. The figures can be analyzed? A. Yes, you have all of those.

Q. Is there anything else? A. I am able to give some testimony in regard to some of the testimony here.

Q. What is that? A. Riebieano gave testimony here. He is a slow cutter and he worked 50 weeks in 1913 and he earned an average wage of $12.13.

Q. That is from your payroll? A. That is in my payroll and you have it. Then there was John Hager.

Q. Do you recall what his testimony was as to what he received? A. That was it approximately. That was approximately the figures that he gave.

Q. You understand that we have figured these averages on 52 weeks basis rather than on a 50 week basis, which would make it appear a little lower, probably? A. Yes, but they did not work the other two weeks and we have figured the amount from the payroll that these men received.


Q. They did not work the other two weeks? A. They were holidays, at the time of taking inventory and the Fourth of July time.

Q. So that is what you usually consider as a year's work? A. Yes.


Q. Your factory runs 50 weeks during the year? A. It ran 50 weeks, 1913.


Q. Is that all?


Q. Have you any figures on other earnings as to what they have reached, their average earnings? A. No.


Q. And during the present year, 1914, were they working on this system, this $15 a week proposition? A. 1914, yes, sir, all the present year

Q. Our questions to the men were for the last year, for the year from July to July of this year? A. Yes.

Q. And it may be that working on that plan would further reduce their average earnings? A. It probably would, yes sir, that would reduce the average earnings.


Q. Would that be a fair average year? A. No, sir, it was full time and part time. Half a week, and we have got a list here of seven cutters that earn $21.14.


Q. In what year? A. That is in 1913.

Q. That is for full time? A. That is full time.

Q. That is the average wage of the cutters? A. Yes.

Q. Are the highest men in your factory? A. The highest average cutters, yes.

Q. Those earning the most money? A. These earning the most money.


Q. Mr. Mandrell, you have been in the business for a good many years, I mean in the glove business, have you not? A. Since 1879.

Q. During all that time you have employed cutters at various times? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, are you a cutter yourself? A. Yes, sir, I was before I went into the business.

Q. And under conditions as they existed during the entire year of 1913 in that factory, what do you say as to a fair earning capacity of the average skilled cutter working nine hours a day; what do they earn? A. You want the average man?

Q. The average man, not the most skillful man and not the man that loiters, the average man, the man of average skill, that works conscientiously say nine hours a day, what would you say would be his fair earning capacity? A. He ought to earn $18 a week.


Q. As an average? A. Yes.


Q. Do you mean including the half day on Saturday? A. We have not worked in years on Saturday afternoons.


Q. Did the average cutter working in your factory in 1913, earn $18 a week as an average? A. We have not figured that to see.

Q. How do you know then that he should? A. Why, my own experience I could tell whether a man could earn it or not, by what the other man earned there during that time. But, of course, the slow people could not begin to earn that. But, you know, there a lot that earn a great deal more than that and the average would be about that, as I say.

Q. Do you find in the glove industry that there are slow and fast cutters? A. Yes, sir.

Q. But you don't know of your own knowledge that the average cutter in Fulton county, that the average cutter earns $18 a week? A. I don't know what they earn. I am speaking for my own factory.

Q. And you don't know in your own factory that the average cutter here in Fulton county earns $18 a week? A. I don't know positively, but I think a man can do it who is a fair cutter.

Q. And 1913 was a very prosperous year in your factory, I mean in the glove business? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know that in 1912 the cutters of Fulton county made a request to the manufacturers for an increase in wages? A. I think they did, yes sir.

Q. And 1912 was a pretty prosperous year in the Glove business? A. A fairly good year, yes sir.

Q. And do you know the reason that the manufacturers gave for refusing to increase the wages of the cutters? A. I don't know, unless it was the impending change of the tariff.

Q. How long have you been in this business here? A. This business?

Q. Yes? A. About forty years.

Q. Do you remember that an increase was given in 1897? A. Yes, sir, 6 cent raise on mochos.

Q. Was that in 1897? A. I haven't got it fixed in my mind the year it was given in.

MR. McMANUS: Was there a flat increase at that time?


Q. Was there a flat increase of ten - ? A. Ten cents?

Q. It was ten cents or ten percent, I don't know which?

MR. BAKER: He means that the time of the strike was 1897 and he says that the outgrowth of that was an increase of 10 percent or 10 cents; do you know?


Q. The testimony as it stands, shows that it was proved that previous to that time, the manufacturers agreed after the Dingley Bill got into effect to give them an increase in wages; that is, this was the testimony that was presented to this Board. They stated further that after the bill went into effect that they made an application to the employers for the increase that was promised, and that the manufacturers at that time told them that they had promised, that what they had promised was not an increase in wages, it was steadier work, and that they then went on a strike and after ten weeks strike they were successful, in getting I don't know whether it was ten percent or 10 cents increase in wages? A. I am not familiar with that.

Q. You don't remember in 1897 of a strike that lasted ten weeks? A. I mean I haven't got it in mind. I don't know at this time. I probably had it in mind at the time.


Q. Do you remember a strike of several months duration? A. Six months?

Q. A few years? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember except this one? A. Oh, I remember of incipient strikes, yes sir.

Q. The best of my information is that these two strikes before this one are the only general and long strikes which have taken place here in a great many years?

MR. DOWNEY: There was a strike in 1904 down there, but the strike of 1904 was not for an increase in wages, was it? There was a strike here in the Glove business in 1904, wasn't there?

THE WITNESS: I haven't got the date in my mind.

MR. McDONALD: 1903 and 04?

MR. DOWNEY: 1903 and 04 or whatever it was.


Q. The glove cutting business, in your judgment, is a skilled trade, isn't it? A. Oh, partially so, yes.

Q. What in your judgment is the average wage for a skilled mechanic? A. Why, if he is a good fast mechanic, a fair mechanic, he ought to earn $18 a week as I told you before. He can do it, as I said before, if he works.


Q. You are referring now to the Glove business? A. Yes, sir.

Q. He asked you generally? A. Oh, I don't know generally.


Q. Generally? A. Oh generally, as I say, I don't know.

Q. In any other skilled trade? A. Of course, some are worth a good deal more than others, and some of them require more skill than the glove business.

Q. You don't think at this time that the trade could stand an increase of 15 cents? A. I don't.

Q. 15 cents, which would probably increase the selling cost, the selling price of the gloves one cent or one cent and quarter per pair? A. I don't think so, not at this time.


Q. And never has been a time in the past 17 years when the manufacturers of Fulton county never knew a time when there would be a substantial increase. The men swore here that they had repeatedly requested an increase in wages and each time the manufacturers refused to give it on account of the times or the conditions? A. Yes, sir, something would come along to offset it.

Q. In your judgment, I suppose, the cutters may never hope to receive another increase more than they have now? A. I don't know about that.

Q. That is all? A. There would have had it before this if there had not been so many Democrats.

Q. And yes, when you got a tariff in 1897 you didn't give it to them at that time and they went out on a strike for ten weeks? A. You are talking about something that I don't know anything about.

Q. You are forty years in the business? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And if any man had a strike in his factory within ten years that in my opinion is something that no man could possibly forget? A. Maybe I did not have it. They have had strikes and I had cutters going all the time and I did not feel it at all.

Q. This was a complete shut down, as I understood it? A. The complete shutdown was when they had a six months strike.

Q. Was that for the increase in wages? A. That was more for a recognition of the Union.

Q. That came in 1904 the men swore? A. I haven't got the dates in mind when it occurred.

Q. From 1897 up until the time was reduced, there was not anything to prevent an increase in wages, when you got all kinds of protection? A. Well, conditions came about where we could not do it, for instance, bad business.

Q. And no matter what will happen now, the same conditions will arise? A. I don't know.


Q. And one of the conditions is the local competition in the glove business? A. The competition in the glove business in this locality has always been intense.

Q. And you think that will always tend to keep the cost of wages down? A. We don't consider the cost of wages are down.

Q. But it will tend to keep them where they are? A. Unless conditions remain where they are.

Q. Assuming that you got a more satisfactory tariff, then in place of your foreign competition, would come your local competition here in Fulton county and things would remain as they are; is not that so? A. I can not tell what the conditions will be in the future.

Q. Was that the condition subsequent to 1897? A. Well that had its effect, of course.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.


Q. Mr. Mandrell, during the time elapsing from 1897 to the present time, state whether or not there has been a development of the fine goods, the gentlemen's fine glove industry in this country? A. Very large, yes sir.

Q. And prior to that time was there any large amount of Gent's gloves made here, the fine gloves? A. Not many.

Q. During that same period time, while we have been developing the gentlemen's fine glove business, state whether or not the coarse goods industry to a great extent has left this county? A. It has.

Q. Now, has there been any appreciable increase in the cost of leather that you used in the fine glove industry since 1897? A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the past year has there been a marked advance in the price of leather since the first of January to the present time? A. Yes.

Q. Has there been an advance in the price of fasteners and also of silk used in sewing gloves? A. Fasteners have advance thirty percent.

Q. And what do you say as to silk? A. Well, as to silk, the advances are very slight.

Q. Well, there was some advance in the price for silk? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, Mr. Mandrell, that the foreign manufacturers practically and in fact set the prices at which your gloves must be sold to the jobbers or dealers in this country? A. They do.

Q. In other words, you have got to meet a price at which the manufacturers can lay down their goods and pay the tariff? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And now, as a manufacturer of years of experience, having worked and manufactured under at least three different tariffs and I refer first to the Wilson-German Bill, and second to the Dingley Bill and third to the Payns-Aldrich Bill and the fourth to the present Underwood Bill, and I ask, you, in the absence of the War, and in the time when the European manufacturers were putting out their usual output of gloves, state what effect it would have upon the industry here, under this reduced tariff? A. It has a very bad effect.

Q. You mean a depressing effect? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In other words, if, you continued in the business, to any great extent, you would have to meet the price of foreign manufacturers who send their goods over here under the basis of the new tariff? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that tariff was $2.30 less than it was in the period from 1897 to 1912? A. Yes, it was.


Q. And have you encountered any advance in the cost of living in the last 17 years? A. Well, I presume it has advanced, yes sir.

Q. And meats are higher? A. Yes, they are.

Q. And flour is higher? A. Well, I don't know.

Q. Sugar higher? A. Yes.

Q. Generally speaking, from your general knowledge on the subject there has been quite an appreciable advance in the cost of living has there not? A. Some advance, yes.

Q. And rather a sharp advance this year? A. Yes, sugar especially, although I don't buy very little in barrels in my house. I know it from general knowledge and nothing else.

Q. Then if we agree for the sake of argument that the wages of cutters 17 years were very adequate, I presume that you would agree that in view of the higher cost of living there ought to be, if possible, an advance in wages for the cutters in that time, would there not? A. If conditions will permit.

Q. You mean as far as conditions would permit? A. Yes, if conditions will permit.


Q. The wages now are relatively lower than they were 17 years ago; I mean the wages of the cutters? A. They have had more steady work of late years.

Q. Several spoke about that yesterday and they said they were employed 30 weeks at one time and employed 50 now; is that the condition?

MR. BAKER: Now seven months up to fifty weeks.


Q. And do you mean that that brought more prosperity to the manufacturers in his business, do you think that the extra employment without an increase of wages is an equitable distribution of the prosperity? A. Well, I am not a judge of that.

Q. All other labor you may employ, such as the plumber and the carpenter, you have to pay now more than you did seventeen years ago? A. I presume so, yes sir.

Q. That is what I want to find out, whether the cutters are relatively as well off today as they were seventeen years ago.


Q. Have you any other statement which you would like to make? A. I have not.

MR. ROGERS: That is all. I thank you.

MR. BAKER: Would the Board at this time take up Mr. Potter, he wants to get away at this time, if possible.

MR. ROGERS: Yes, sir.

G E O R G E C. P O T T E R,, called as a witness and being duly sworn, testifies as follows:


Q. Your age, Mr. Potter? A. 50.

Q. You are a member of the firm of Hutchins and Potter? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that a firm or a corporation? A. A co-partnership.

Q. Your self and Mr. Hutchins? A. And Mr. Hildebrand.

Q. And how many cutters work normally in your mill, I mean in normal times? A. Why, anywheres from 20 to 25.

Q. Are there any working there now? A. Well of late years we used to have fifty. Yes, sir, we have four or five working now.

Q. Immediately prior to the strike you had how many? A. Well, 20 to 25. We have four or five cutters working now.

Q. Have you prepared a statement as requested by the Board? A. I have.

Q. And filed it with Mr. Baker? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that statement prepared by yourself? A. I assisted in it.

Q. Do you know whether or not it is correct? A. I do.

Q. And do you swear it is correct? A. I swear it is.

Q. Do you think you are able to pay an increase to the cutters? A. Well in answer to that I might say that we import a good many gloves now, because we can not produce them at the present rate of wages so we can compete with European manufacturers.

Q. And that is under normal conditions in Europe? A. That is under normal conditions in Europe.

Q. What effect has this War on the European product? A. Why so far, it seems only to have delayed shipments some. We got in some shipments last week from Europe but from England and France. In fact, they are in New York now. Not in the factory as yet. I got word today that the European manufacturers are asking for new orders for next year on practically the same basis as this year. That is, in some of the gloves. Not in the colored gloves, they ask an advance of five cents, but in blacks and whites they are the same as this year.

Q. And are the prices of your material going up? A. Yes sir, there has been an advance in material.

Q. And that necessitates a decrease in your cost of manufacture some where, doesn't it? A. So far, the effect has been to wipe out the profits of the glove business more than any decrease in the cost of manufacture.

Q. And if the decrease continues - - A. (Int) We would either go out of business or do all our business in Europe.

Q. Are you a member of the Association of Manufacturers? A. Yes, sir, I mean our firm is.

Q. And as such member of such association, are you regulated in the price you pay the cutters by the price paid by the other cutters? A. No, we have a schedule though.

Q. And that is the same as the schedule of the other factories? A. Nothing especially binding about it, only the schedule is in general effect here.

Q. What regulates that? A. Why, it is usually referred to a committee and they go over it and estimate what wages can be paid in view of the conditions that exist in the glove business at that time.

Q. And the committee represents the individual manufacturers or all of them? A. Well, yes, the members of the association.

Q. What voting power has your firm in the association? A. No one has any more power than the other; everybody has one vote at the meeting.

Q. And the membership fees or dues are regulated how? A. Well, the association voted they could not afford to pay any dues, so, there are no dues.

Q. And they have been discontinued? A. Yes, the dues have been discontinued.


Q. You have meetings and kinds of amusements and something of that sort or other? A. Yes, sometimes.

Q. And the individual member paid for the hall or how is that arranged? A. The association chipped in.

Q. And they take a chance on somebody paying less than another? A. I think they have enough money in the treasury to pay those incidental expenses. When we have a large expense, like a tariff fight, such as we have frequently in the last few years, we have to go down in our own pockets and settle for it.


Q. How much of your business is imported? A. Well, that is a business that is on the increase somewhat. Why, I should say perhaps twenty percent or possibly 25 percent of our goods this year are imported.

Q. Last year? A. Oh maybe 15 percent.

Q. You are able to buy these imported gloves and sell them at a profit here? A. Yes, we are. We can buy them and land them here cheaper than we can make them, the same gloves under the same conditions.


Q. And is that a grade of glove which at one time you made? A. Oh, yes. All the English gloves we get we made here before.

Q. So, you have abandoned that line to that extent? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And now you are buying them abroad? A. Yes.

Q. That is, you can buy them cheaper abroad and bring them here, and it is to your advantage to do so? A. We can buy much cheaper than we can make them; that is, we can buy them abroad and land them here and sell them at a profit.


Q. Does that cover all the gloves? A. No, only a certain line of mens' gloves.


Q. Mr. Potter, do you remember the strike in 1910? A. 1910?

Q. Or 1897, the strike I refer to? A. I don't remember it definitely, but probably there was a strike.

Q. How long has your firm been in business? A. 25 years.

Q. And does that settlement you rendered include your profits whatever they were upon your imported goods also? A. Yes, sir.

Q. It is all in one business? A. All under one head.

Q. In other words that is all mingled in your business all the way through? A. Yes, it is all included there.

MR. BAKER: We ask that question so as to show that Board it is all included in that, all the business the manufacturer did.


Q. There has been an appreciable advance in leather and supplies used by yourselves and other firms engaged in the manufacturer of gent's fine gloves in the last seventeen years? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there a marked advance in lower priced gloves this year immediately over the outbreak of hostilities abroad? A. Yes, sir, there was a very marked advance.

Q. And was there an advance this year before that? A. No, I don't think there was. Our prices were about the same as last year.

Q. And your fasteners, has there also been an advance this year? A. I understand that the price has advanced about thirty percent. We don't buy the fasteners.

Q. And what do you say as to the silk? A. Not a very heavy advance. I think about 50 cents a pound.

Q. Fifty cents a pound advance in the last year? A. Yes, sir.


Q. What do you say about the present business situation, whether good or bad? A. Do you mean as to the glove business?

Q. Yes, and generally as far as your knowledge goes? A. Why, I should say that our business in August was about the same as it was last year, our new business. September it was about one-third of last year, and during those two months we received countermands and cancellations of over $18,000.


Q. How does that correspond with cancellations and countermands in ordinary years? A. Oh, it is very much greater.

Q. You always do have some cancellations? A. Oh yes, there are some, but at this season of the year, there are very few. This season of the year is when people usually want goods of all kinds.


Q. In other words, it is rather exceptional to get cancellations at this time at all? A. So many of them, yes.


Q. What do you say about the re-orders, in the past and in this month, as compared with the rest? A. I should say, as I said before, that the September re-orders are one-third this year

Q. Does that apply to re-orders? A. Yes, new business, re-orders.


Q. Have you personally served on the manufacturers' schedule committee? A. Not for several years.

Q. Have you been on any conference committee of lately as to an increase of wage or an increase of wages? A. This last discussion, yes sir.

Q. Do you know of a request that the men made for an increase in wages about two years ago? A. I remember something, that there was such a request made, but I don't remember the time. There has been several, been several requests of that kind made.

Q. But about two years ago, and extended from the holiday time over and at the time of the tariff reduction, there was a distinct request made for an increase which was finally declined, I believe? A. Yes. I think there was a demand at that time. That was when we expected the new tariff to be formulated.

Q. Did you as a matter of act suffer a reduction in the tariff at that time? A. Why, I think the industry in general suffered a very material reduction from $4.80 on mens gloves to $2.50.

Q. Did you in your selling price of gloves, did you take an advantage of that protection; I mean in view of that $4.80 protection? A. As far as local competition made it possible, yes.

Q. That is just the point. Hasn't the local competition been such that you only did take advantage of half of your protection. The local competition has always been rather severe in the glove business, and the Washington authorities object strenuously to any combination for the raising of prices, and that is a question that they always ask us in our tariff discussions. They seem to believe that we have a glove trust here and a hearing of this sort ought to make it plain that we have not, and the competition in this business here is as severe as anywhere in the world, and it is so all over the world too.

Q. In your own mind, don't you really feel or believe, that the local competition which undersells the tariff protection more than $2.00 has made all the bad conditions of the trade rather than the reduction in this tariff at that time? A. Well, you are speaking of the time before the reduction in the tariff went into effect?

Q. Yes? A. I think if it had been possible to have formed some sort of a combination here that on some of the cheaper goods there might have been a little better price realized, but with 150 competitors it is difficult to do that, and they are operating to keep profits down to a minimum.


Q. It was not very difficult, Mr. Potter, for manufacturers to come together here, so far as they have been concerned, and make a schedule of wages that all manufacturers have lived up to? A. They made a schedule about two and a half times as high as competitors in Europe made, Mr. Downey.

Q. But you did and do now have a schedule of wages made through a committee of the Manufacturers' Association. So, so far as the wages are concerned, there really is no competition in this county? A. Oh yes, only a few manufacturers belong to the Association.

Q. But, your competitors, and so on, abide by the same schedule? A. Yes, possibly.

Q. And all the men testified, all the cutters testified, that they got the same wages in every factory, so far as wages were concerned, so there is no competition? A. There is competition nevertheless when the trade demands more work.

Q. They don't testify so here. They testified no matter if there was lots of work, in spite of the law of supply and demand, no matter how severe the demand was, that still in all of the factories the same schedule prevailed? A. There is nothing binding in this schedule. There is nothing to hold you to that. There is nothing in the way of a penalty for a violation.

Q. No, but there are very few violations? A. We always considered it was better for the industry and for the employee and every one interested to have some sort of an understanding about the wages, and I think the men approved that plan also.

Q. But they were not consulted when you drew the schedule? A. Oh, yes, they were for a number of years.

Q. When did you cease to consult them? A. Why, I don't think that we have had, with the exception of these last conferences, that we have had any formal conferences for some time, but whenever there is any grievance and the matter is brought up it is considered at that time, and if a change could be made it is made. There have been a number of little changes, in fact, some very good changes were made during the last two or three years.


Q. Do you believe that in view of the fact that there has been no general advance in the price of cutting in 17 years and in view of the higher cost of living which the cutters have to meet, that an advance in price is desirable as soon as conditions warrant it? A. I should think so, yes.

Q. You think the manufacturers generally feel that way? A. I believe so.


Q. You said and several witnesses have stated that there is no penalty for violating the schedule made up by the manufacturers' association; you used the word penalty? A. Yes.

Q. What do you mean by penalty, do you mean no fine or sentence? A. There is no fine or penalty for a violation, no jail sentence or anything of that kind.

Q. Has there been a penalty in this way, that if one manufacturer fails to live up to the schedule and paid more, or something of that sort, that if one did it that all would have to? A. In answer to that I will say that I have not heard of a case of that sort.

Q. And I take it that you have not thought anything about it in telling about the situation here? A. I will state this that it has been a little difficult to do business the last few years under the present schedule.

Q. Outside of the last few years, the wages have remained stationary, the testimony shows that, while the wages in every other craft have been going up, and the cost of living was increasing, and it seems to mean if that condition is due more to the character of the competition among the glove manufacturers themselves right here than to any other reason. Now, if they could not get together for the purpose of making up an increase that all other trades have got, it would seem as if the men would have to do something to bring about that result, and it is also shown here for some reason or other the mens' organization is destroyed. It would appear as though they did not have a chance to negotiate or do anything over a period of seventeen years. Formerly it was done through the medium of unionism, and it has been demonstrated that this can not be done in any particular way except through the collective meeting, collective dealings between employers and employees. That was destroyed in the first instance and it has not been reestablished, and that is the reason that they have remained stationary? A. No, I believe it was the trade conditions.

Q. But the trade conditions in the glove business was the competition among the manufacturers? A. Yes, to some extent, but there has never been a time when we have not had competition with Europe. Even under the high tariff they have had the best end of the glove business. That is, in the mens' business they have had the dollar and a half gloves and thirteen-fifty up, and all the womens' business, of all kinds, except a few caps gloves and goat skin, except the typical American styles, that have been created here, all that business has been done in Europe even under the old tariff.

Q. But you do considerable business here in this country, and 70% they stated, was the amount that they did here in this county? A. Mens' gloves?

Q. Mens' gloves? A. Yes, but we had some business, but it has been an awful fight to get it.

Q. Competition among yourselves has been the result of keeping the wages stationary in place of the upward trend generally? A. I think if the cost of manufacture had been increased here that instead of having a fair percentage of the mens' business here they would have had it all in Europe. I think if you go back 17 years that you will find that the earning capacity of the men has more than doubled in the last seventeen years. I think that the payrolls will show that, that the earnings of table cutters have more than doubled in the last 17 years by reason of more steady employment. You can not show anything like that in the profits of the manufacturers.

Q. You mean, if they only worked 25 weeks then, in former years, where they work 50 now, - ? A. There has been an increase. There was a ten percent increase, I think that was the ten percent you referred to. I think it was in 1897. I have forgotten the date. I take your figures for that? Previous to that they worked six or seven, and at the outside eight months a year and if you compare the earnings now with the earnings then you will find they are probably more than doubled.

Q. You say that their wages have been more than doubled, and you allow for more than a slight increase in the amount of time worked. What I want to get clear is this, so we can ask this question. Suppose there should be an extra prosperous condition coming to the glove manufacturers in this locality, and profits should be all right or what they are now; what chance have the cutters got to get an increase of wages in the face of the fact that it has been testified that the local competition has always kept things down? A. Why, we would always, - -

Q. (Int) That is, from past experience, it does not look as if there is as much to be gained in the cheapness of leather or other things, that the glovers would again start in to compete with each other and we right down where they are now, and the cutters under no circumstances, and especially under conditions existing now, would be able to get an increase in wages? A. I think if such conditions as that would ever arise, Mr. McManus, we would be falling over ourselves to get cutters and pay them anything we could to get them to work.

Q. Yes, but it has been testified here, that the Association has been adhering pretty closely to the schedule of wages set regardless of the demand in that respect? A. That condition you speak of has never existed in the business. There has never been a time of long profits in the glove business.

Q. I am not speaking about long profits. My idea is that there would not be a long period of profit, but if conditions were better and material cheaper, that the glove makers would start in competing and get things down in competing among themselves, and you would forget the cutters. That is what I want to get at. Now, could the cutters, under any other conditions of the business, hope for any other increase such as other trades have received during the past seventeen years. That is the thing in all of this testimony we have been unable to get clear on that point, whether there was any possible chance of an increase under any circumstances? A. You can guess on what would happen as well as I can if we had such a prosperous condition as you speak of.


Q. What do you say, Mr. Potter, as to Fownes and other companies granting the increase, as we understand they have, the manufacturers in New York City, who have conceded an increase of 15 cents a dozen. We have very reliable information from New York City to our department and to the settlement of the strike which has been reached, that the men have been conceded a 15 cent increase a dozen? A. I don't know the conditions of their business, Mr. Downey. I imagine that the New York glove people (illegible word) womens' gloves,and that the supply might be (illegible word) with to some extent on those goods from Europe now.

Q. Women's gloves? A. Yes. Now, as to Fownes' increase, I should think that would be rather easy to guess at. Their main business is there in New York, and if they could increase the cost of production in the whole industry, there, it would be in their interests to do so, and in every other firm or company, it would have its effect.


Q. Hallock & Stewart have no foreign mills have they? A. No.

Q. Have you any idea how they could afford the increase? A. I could not guess that out.


Q. They are competitors of yours and the other manufacturers, aren't they? A. Yes, sir, to a certain extent.

Q. And in New York City the same class or quality of gloves is made down there as up here? A. We don't come in competition with them in New York, the New York manufacturers, and I understand that they make mostly womens' gloves.

Q. Do I understand you to say that you do not come in competition with the manufacturers of any other section of the country except Europe? A. We come in competition but no special instance has been brought to my mind of competition with gloves made in New York. I don't know much about them. Perhaps they sell to a different class of trade or a different class of store or something. We don't meet them much in business. Our business is perhaps with smaller dealers than theirs.

Q. These manufacturers in New York are not any larger than they are in Fulton county, are they? A. They might sell them to larger houses. We don't sell much to department stores. We don't come in competition with them in our own business. We don't come in contact with them. Perhaps some of the others do.


Q. I lost track of that answer of yours as to under what conditions the cutters could expect any increase in wages? A. Why, improved business conditions.

Q. I know, but how under increased and improved business conditions. Conditions have to shape themselves so that this local competition would not exist and would not force the men as they are now, and don't you know that that prevents an increase in wages, as it has been testified it has prevented an increase of wages in the past? A. I should think the increase would come whenever the demand for cutters exceeded the supply.

Q. In face of the fact of the general schedule of yours as now shaped by the Manufacturers' Association? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in no other way? A. Well, that is the natural way that things of that sort are brought about.

Q. Of course, that would be temporary? A. Well, it would be hard to tell what it would be.

Q. That condition could not exist, could it, as long as you adhere to a certain schedule of wages. Under that condition you are going to pay more at one time and less at another time, under the scheme that you present. Tell me, under what circumstances could the general schedule could be increased? A. Under just those conditions, increased business and an increased demand. Just what the increase will be and when it will be will be determined by just those conditions. At times there has been a shortage in the supply but not very often.

Q. But under that situation, wouldn't the competition among yourselves tend to keep down the wages then? A. The competition among ourselves would tend to increase wages I should think.

Q. Competition for labor? A. Yes, competition for labor.

Q. I see there does not seem to be any competition among yourselves for competition in that line, and it seems that these wages have been fixed along every line and these prices have been paid? A. Well, there has not been any competition, because it has been difficult to keep labor employed, here of late, and at the old rate today, there is not work half of the people today.

Q. Has any attempt been made to lessen the schedule? A. No, I don't think so.

Q. And the law of supply and demand would operate there? A. No, all the work there was, was divided up and distributed as far as possible at the old rate, when in fact the actual business conditions called for a reduction in manufacturers all along the line.

Q. And the law of supply and demand seems to go out of business so often that it seems hard to tell where it is effected? A. Yes, sir.


Q. Aren't there cutters willing to work for less? A. I don't know. They wouldn't if they did not have to.

Q. Do you know of any who have been willing to do that? A. We have never offered the cutters any lower wages.

Q. Why is that? A. Why, because we based our prices on the present figures.

Q. You mean you are adhering to the schedule agreed to by the Association? A. Yes, we pay according to that schedule.

Q. And for the same reason that you refuse to reduce your wages in hard times, that you also refuse to increase them in times were better? A. Why, we never refused to reduce them. Nobody ever asked us to reduce them.

` MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: Are there any other statements you would like to make?

THE WITNESS: No. I would like to state, - I would like to state this, that one or two or our employees testified here, and one who is not an employee of ours at the time, one Avilano, I think that was the name. I think his testimony was that his average earnings were $14 a week and I find him working for us - - I assume that is the same man that was here - they tell me it is - he worked twenty weeks in 1913 and his average wage if $15.40.

MR. BAKER: Avilano?

THE WITNESS: The one who testified that he lost two children. Avilano or something like that.

MR. McMAHON: A l v i n o, I think it is.

MR. BAKER: Yes, that is right.


Q. Mr. Potter, I am informed that Mr. Alvino, who testified here, states that he never worked in your firm. A. Well, that is a mistake. They gave me the name and they stated that was the same man who worked there twenty weeks in 1913. The names were given to us, the name was given to us as Avilano.

Q. Avillino, as I recall it? A. The paper had it as I recall it, just like this.

MR. BAKER: Apparently, he is not the same man.

THE WITNESS: Well, I would like to withdraw that if that is the case.

MR. ROGERS: Is there any other statement which you would like to make?

THE WITNESS: Nothing that I can think of now.

MR. ROGERS: We will call James S. Ireland.

J A M E S S. I R E L A N D, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. What is the name of your firm, Mr. Ireland? A. Ireland Brothers.

Q. Of Johnstown? A. Of Johnstown.

Q. Employing how many cutters? A. 35.

Q. Is that a corporation? A. No, sir.

Q. A firm? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Yourself and who else? A. My brother.


Q. Speak so we can hear you, Mr. Ireland? A. Yes.


Q. Have you prepared a statement as requested by the Board? A. I have.

Q. Did you prepare it yourself? A. I did.

Q. Do you swear it is correct? A. It is, except as to the details of the odd cents and odd dollars in the right hand column. I used the round figures there.

Q. Well, that is a very minor matter? A. That is all; that is the only thing.

Q. Are you able to pay an increase to the cutters? A. Why, I could at the expense of the profits and at the expense of the sale.

Q. You think it would still leave you a profit in your business? A. Why, I think it would be up to me to see that I got a small profit out of it; if I could, of course, naturally.

Q. And would that result in an increase in your selling price? A. What is the question.

Q. And would that result in an in increase in your selling price? A. Why it naturally would.

Q. What is the objection to doing that then? A. The objection would be that it would be at the expense of the business, that is it would curtail the sales.

Q. You could not sell as many of your products? A. That is it.

Q. Do you know that? A. Do I know it?

Q. Yes? A. Well, I think it. I don't know as there are any of these things that are positive, at all, until after we have tried them out but that would be my judgment on it.

Q. Do you find that when conditions are favorable otherwise, that is, you have a satisfactory tariff, so that you can compete with the European market, do you find that the domestic competition, the local competition keeps the price down, the price of your labor? A. Now, what is the question again.

Q. Do you find that when tariff conditions are such that when you can compete with foreign competition satisfactory, as under the old tariff which you have had subsequent to 1897, I guess, that the local competition here prevents you competing, or paying an increase to the cutters? A. You mean that the local competition in the selling of the goods keeps the selling price of the goods so low that we can pay a higher price to the cutters?

Q. Yes? A. I presume it does to some extent.

Q. Also in the competition of the wages paid? A. No, that would not effect it.

Q. Well, so how great an extent would you pay? A. Why, that would be pretty hard to state except in a general way.

Q. Do you suppose when you had your four dollar tariff that the competition brought conditions down so that they were substantially parallel to the conditions now under your $2.20 tariff, or whatever it is? A. No, I don't think our local competition was strenuous to bring it down to the present conditions.

Q. Local competition is continually present to offset the effects of any tariff reduction, is it? A. Yes, it is.

Q. That local competition could by no means be eliminated should the present tariff by satisfactory? A. No, I don't think it would.

Q. And in the event that the tariff could be increased to four dollars and eighty cents, or whatever it was, would you then be in a position to increase the wages of your cutters, do you think? A. Why, that would depend upon a good many things. We had a $4.80 tariff for a good many years and they were not any higher than they are now.

Q. And then your local competition interfered? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in the absence of local competition, wouldn't you then be pretty well off under that tariff, would you not? A. Yes, it would have been a very good tariff without local competition, if you could eliminate that some way.

Q. That is all.


Q. In other words if the tariff of $4.80 could be restored and you could form a trust, so to speak, among all the manufacturers in this country, you could then raise the price of the gloves to almost any figure, could you not? A. Well, you could raise the price, of course.


Q. But, wouldn't you have your foreign competition just the same? A. Well under the $4.80 tariff we probably did not get all the advantage of the tariff, probably, which there was, because we unfortunately had competition at home.


Q. If you could form a trust under this present tariff how could you get along? A. I don't believe we could meet the foreigner in competition. I believe he could beat us under the present tariff.

Q. That is all.


Q. If your firm a member of the Association? A. Yes.


Q. The matter of taxation comes in, as one of the difficulties in the shop, doesn't it? A. I never heard of it.

Q. Do you know anything about the system; have you had it? A. Yes.

Q. Explain what it is, please? A. The foreman who has charge of the sorting, he sorts his leather up as to quantity, size and weight and as he has his scale marked for a certain number of dozen, for a certain quality of glove, he makes an estimate of the number of skins required to make up a certain number of dozens required. It is bundled up and put in piles and passed out to the cutters in rotation as called for.

Q. Passed out in rotation? A. Passed out in rotation as asked for. I don't mean in rotation, but perhaps there may be a cutter who asked for some of the skins, but as nearly as possible we keep an account of the same kind of work.

Q. That is, the man who does the taxing does not know who is going to get any of the skins? A. Well, I am not positive. I don't think he knows that when he sorting them and piling them up.

Q. You did not hear of any complaint about your factory? A. I have now heard of any.


Q. Have you any statement that you wish to make as to any testimony given by the other witnesses? A. I have not anything in particular, Mr. Rogers, except I was interested in the wage schedule, to have a list of my wage earners made up for 1896 which was a year before this strike which has been referred to several times, and I was really surprised that the condition in the earning capacity then, in 1896, as compared with 1904, as between the wage scales of that year and of late, that they are practically double what they were in 1896 for the same cutters, the average of the entire force is practically double. I can give you the exact figures and I would like to leave them with your statistician and I would be pleased to have them go over the figures in 1896 for the cutters at work and of the fifteen I have five still with us and three in advanced position and three are in the office and two have died since and others have been distributed around in different factories and I can only refer to those who are still working there. One man who worked according to the payroll in 1896 for twelve months, that is, he was paid during the twelve months anyway an average of $40.63 per month. That same man for the first six months of 1914 earned an average of $17.78 a week. Of course the payrolls were then made up monthly. Another man who in 1896 earned an average monthly wage of $43.26, for the first six months of 1914 average $22.63 a week. Now then our payroll is in your hands for the six months, as well as the six months of 1913 and I find on the average that out of 35 cutters for the first six months in 1914 practically ten percent of them earned an average of better than $20.00 a week, 16% of them earned an average of $18.00, 33_% earned an average of better than $16.00 and 50% earned an average of better than $15.00 a week.

Q. Have you figured the total average for the establishment, for the cutters? A. That total average is $15.15 for the first six months of this year, 1914.


Q. The price paid per dozen was less than 1896? A. Yes, in our factory the price paid in 1896 was 80 cents for mochos and 85 cents for kids and in 1914, 93 for mochos and 95 for kid.


Q. Do you recall whether the advance in 1897 after this strike you have spoken of was an advance which had previously been paid or had there been a few years before this cut in price of the same amount which the strike of 1897 restored? A. I don't know; you gentlemen go back pretty far for me when you got back in 1897.

Q. How long have you been in the business? A. So long that I hate to tell you, since 1891.

Q. Do you recall any reduction in the price in 1893? A. No, I do not; I would not say that there was not one, but I do not recall it.


Q. The year of the panic? A. Yes.


Q. It has been testified that there was to be a reduction in price, or there was a reduction in price which the advance in 1897 restored? A. I won't state that that is a positive fact, but as I remember after the settlement of the difficulty in 1897, there was a pretty good advance, an average of about 15% or 20% in our factory, and if I remember right, I looked up and found out that the price then in effect after 1897, that were paid for capes and mochos, were the highest prices that had been paid as far back as our labor records went.


Q. Mr. Ireland, and thereafter and until January 1914, until that situation, there were conferences between committees representing the Union and the manufacturers? A. Yes, I believe so.

Q. Every year up to 1904? A. I am not certain as to that, as to whether 1903 or 1904, but somewhere along there.

Q. I mean up until the year the strike occurred? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, in 1904 what was the demand made at that time which afterwards resulted in the strike? A. Why, my recollection of it is, that the chairman of the committee representing the manufacturers asked the committee of the cutters if they were willing to work without discrimination in the factories and I believe that the cutters declined to do that.

Q. What do you mean by discrimination? a. That is without discriminating men who were not members or affiliated with their organization, their Union.

Q. And was there a question of wages involved at that time as far as you know? A. Well it might have been or not, at that time, because negotiations were broken off immediately because of the refusal at that time to agree to that phase of the situation. This was the beginning of the meeting, that is, it was the time the committee from the manufacturers' association met with the committee of the cutters to adjust the question of the wages and agree between themselves on the schedule and they had not got to the point of taking up the price question at all.


Q. Since that time you have had no regular meeting with your employees, have you? A. I don't think so, no sir.

Q. The breaking up of their Union at that time broke up all direct conferences between the employers and the employees? A. I think it did, yes.


Q. Have you any further statements you would like to make? A. No, I don't think of anything further.

MR. BAKER: We would like to call Mr. Nelson.

A B R A H A M N E L S O N, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. What firm are you connected with? A. Lehr & Nelson.

Q. And did you prepare a statement as requested by this Board? A. I did.

Q. Of all of the affairs of your company? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You prepared that personally? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you swear it is true? A. I do.

MR. McMAHON: That is all.

MR. ROGERS: Mr. martin Kennedy.

M A R T I N K E N N E D Y, called as a witness and being duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. What is your age, Mr. Kennedy? A. How is that?

Q. Your age? A. 39.

Q. And your firm is what? A. Lucas and Kennedy.

Q. Lucas & Kennedy? A. Yes.

Q. And you employ how many cutters? A. 30 to 35.

Q. 30 to 35? A. Yes.

Q. Have you prepared a statement of the affairs of your company? A. I have.

Q. And filed that with Mr. Baker? A. I have.

Q. Did you prepare that personally? A. I did.

Q. And you know it is true? A. I do.

Q. Is your firm able to pay an increase to the cutters? A. How is that?

Q. Is your firm able to pay an increase to the cutters? A. Are we able to?

Q. Are you able to? A. Under the present conditions?

Q. Yes? A. I think so, no, sir.

Q. What regulates the sales price of your product? A. The sales price of the product?

Q. Yes? A. Why, certain prices that the storekeeper has been in the habit of paying for gloves and he wants a glove he can sell for a $1.50 to $2.00 and in order to sell a glove for those prices, he can buy so much, you know, and the overhead charges of the store, the charge against his department, and so on, and on account of that there are certain prices that we are obliged to make our gloves at in order to sell them to the storekeeper so he can turn around and retail the gloves at the prices at which they think they will easily retail at.

Q. Well, there is not any reason why he could not be broken of that habit if it was necessary and if he could not get gloves at the prices he has been getting them at? A. Well, he has been selling his gloves at certain prices for a great many years, as well as other articles, that is, the customers will buy a pair of suspenders at 25 cents or 50 cents, and buy a pair of shoes at $3.50, gloves at a dollar a pair and it has been that way for a great many years. It has been a custom they have got into and they do not want gloves at different prices and when they send in their orders they send them in at a certain price and they are prices they have had them at for a good many years, consequently we have to sell gloves so that they can sell them at a profit at those prices.


Q. Does that fixed price obtain in the department store price as well as the retail store? A. In the department store prices there are some odd prices, but not in the furnishing goods stores. The odd prices in the department stores are more or less on the cheaper grades, odd lots of gloves. They are odd lots and they are sold at odd prices, but staple sales are generally sold at staple prices.

Q. One of the witnesses read here an advertisement of a large department store in New York City, offering gloves at 69, 89 and $1.39 a pair? A. Yes. Well it is possible at the present time there is very little demand for gloves which they expected to sell at a dollar a pair and on account of being loaded up they are offering them at 89 cents in order to clean them out and get their stock down.

Q. And I suppose it might be the residue of several years accumulation? A. Might possibly be and then might be new goods, and I have known of cases where new lines of merchandise have been taken in in stores and are put on sale at the beginning of the season at lower prices than they expected to sell them for on account of the general outlook being bad, on account of the fact that they felt that they were not going to have the demand for the gloves.

Q. I suppose this past warm Fall has hurt the sales of gloves to some extent? A. That has entered into it, the sale of the product.


Q. Has it been much warmed this Fall than last year? A. I don't know as to that; I don't remember just exactly as to how the weather conditions were a year ago.


Q. Is your firm a member of the Manufacturers' Association? A. It is.

Q. You say it is? A. It is.


Q. Is it a firm or a corporation? A. A firm.

Q. How many members? A. Two.

Q. Yourself and who else? A. And E.J. Lucas.


Q. You stated that you were unable to pay the increase asked by the cutters at this time on account of conditions? A. Yes.

Q. How do you account for the New York cutters, or the manufacturers in New York City, and a couple of firms here in your own town, conceding the 15 cent a dozen increase to the cutters? A. As far as the New York manufacturers are concerned, I am not in any way conversant with what they are doing or trying to do. Now in fact, I don't know as I know the name of any manufacturers there with the exception of possibly one, and I don't know what they are trying to do today. I don't know what they are doing, where they are selling their gloves or what kind of gloves they are making.

Q. Eighty cutters went to work yesterday, eighty four cutters, and I suppose every other factory and we understand, we are getting this, that they are going to start up today. Now, if they are in a position to grant an increase in wages, why are not the manufacturers of Fulton county in the same position? A. I could not tell you as to that. I don't know under what conditions they are working, what kind of gloves they are making and I could not answer the question.

Q. Fownes makes the same kind of gloves that you do? A. They do to some extent.

Q. And Hallock & Stewart make the same kind; they are competitors of yours for trade, are they not? A. Yes.

Q. They can afford it? A. Well, that is the question.

Q. Well, I suppose the best evidence of that is the fact that they have concede it, that makes it appear as though they were able to do it. That is all.


Q. Will you tell us in your own way why you feel yourself unable to agree to the advance asked for by the men? A. In the first place under the tariff under which we are working and the competition being very keen, the foreign importer is able to bring in gloves into this country and sell them to the stores throughout t he country at a low price and if we are going to do any business we have got to compete with those gloves and it is an extremely difficult proposition to do it.

Q. Are you anticipating, - A. And it a great many instances we can not do it.

Q. Are you anticipating as much foreign competition this year as usual? A. We certainly have had it more if it was not for the War and as it is I understand a large number of dozens more have been imported during the first six or eight months of the year than were last year, which naturally cuts down the production in this country.

Q. Don't you think that the European manufacturers goods destined to this country are almost sure to be very largely cut down by the War? A. I do not understand you; I did not get the question.

Q. Don't you feel sure that the gloves which may come to this country will be largely reduced by the War? A. I think they will be somewhat reduced, although I understand from the importers that they are being assured by their manufacturers over there that shipments are being made and the gloves are coming in this country in large quantities and large quantities are expected here, and considering the requirements, the foreign requirements, you can not tell at the present time the amount of gloves that will be shipped in from European countries, and considerable quantities are coming along now, to say nothing about the American manufacturer trying to supply their requirements.


Q. You don't know whether those gloves were contracted to be shipped in before or since the War? A. No, but I know the importer of gloves would not wait until August to send orders abroad for general consumption this winter.

Q. All they are doing now is filling the orders they were given in July or August or last April? A. They will probably fill orders they were given before the War started.


Q. Do you know whether they are still soliciting orders for future deliveries? A. I understand they are telling their importers that they can supply so many dozens of such and such styles at such and such a time.

Q. Do you understand whether it is from present stock or from future manufacturers? A. Some of the glove manufacturers have quite a considerable force of operators at the present time.

Q. Do you know anything about the importations of mens' gloves which came over Germany? A. From Germany?

Q. Yes? A. I do not. I could not tell you in figures as to what amount of mens' gloves came from Germany. I don't think that any considerable amount came from Germany. I don't know as I ever heard of any Germany made mens' gloves to amount to anything being brought into this country.

Q. Do you know what amount of the German imports were of womens' gloves? A. There were not extensive importations from Germany; if they were any they must be womens' gloves. I don't know what percentage of the importation of gloves coming into this country were German made.


Q. Comparatively small so far as you know? A. I should think so. I have heard very little of the German manufacturers.

Q. Whatever came in came in from other countries principally? A. Came from France, Italy and England.

Q. They were the main sources of the supply? A. Yes sir.


Q. Have you any statement which you wish to make in regard to testimony already offered here? A. I have not.

Q. Is there any other statement that you care to make? A. There is none.

MR. ROGERS: That is all then.

J A M E S S. I R E L A N D, recalled.


Q. Mr. Ireland are you interested in the output of a foreign factory situated in France? A. Why, we have acted as sales agents for a Grenoble factory for the last two years, this last year and 1914.

Q. Go on and make any statement in reference to that applicable to the question here? A. The question was asked of Mr. Kennedy in regard to the importing business.

Q. What is the name of that foreign concern? A. Valule Factory, one of the largest factories at Grenoble, and they do business all over the world, in fact the American end of the business is a small end of the business and I suppose that is because we handle it, but at any rate they have their cutters workers, cutters over 45 years of age, and they have shipped us every dozen of gloves that we have ordered from them, and told us that unless we sent our orders by cable they would have to let some of the cutters to, and I cabled them on the strength of that for a 1500 dozen order for an exclusive make, simply to keep the cutters going, not because we needed the goods but because we received that order as to their having to let the cutters go, and we have got a considerable quantity on the way now.

Q. And is there anything further you wish to state in regard to foreign goods? A. Nothing, except that the French goods seem to be coming through without any trouble.


Q. Have you any advise from this Grenoble firm as to the proportion of manufacture they are making in comparison with their ordinary force? A. No, I haven't got any information, Mr. Rogers, on that, except in a letter where they state they have only at work cutters that are over 45 years of age. The others, of course, have all gone to War, and I imagine that the production is not to exceed 25% of their production, as their market is cut off.

Q. Is the glove manufacturing in France located around Grenoble, concentrated there as it is here in Gloversville? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that about the only center in France? A. No, there are one or two others. There is one at Mieux and one at Paris or at Champione, near Paris, one of the suburbs.

Q. Whereabouts is Grenoble in France? A. Southeastern part, near the Alps, near Switzerland.

Q. Where is Mieux? A. I don't know; I think it is South West of Paris.

Q. And both of those centers are immediately out of the hostile zone? A. Yes, sir.

J U L I U S K. N O R T H R U P, being called as a witness and duly sworn, testified as follows:


Q. What is your firm's name? A. Northrup Glove Manufacturing Company.

Q. A corporation? A. A co-partnership.

Q. The members who are? A. Walter A. Genny, A.J. Rosendale and myself.

Q. You employ how many cutters? A. About thirty.

Q. And are you able to pay the increase? A. We are not.

Q. Why? A. Why, due to our inability to sell our product for more than we are now receiving and owing to the reduction of the tariff and to some extent local competition and our inability to get orders.

Q. Well, you are reducing the price of your product by reason of the inability to get orders? A. No, no.

Q. Local competition has quite a little weight on the subject, doesn't it? A. To some extent, yes, sir. The tariff however, has had a greater effect in the year 1914 than the local competition.

Q. Do you suppose that the foreign producers are carrying now a stock of gloves with which they have been loaded up and that the importations will fall off soon? A. As to that I have not any definite knowledge, and I do not know what their stocks were, not being an importer. We don't import any gloves at all.

Q. But your competition is in imported gloves, isn't it? A. Yes, to a considerable extent.

Q. Have you prepared a statement of the affairs of your company? A. We have.

Q. And have you given it to Mr. Baker? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it true? A. It is true. I did not prepare the statement myself, but I assisted in the preparation of it.

Q. Did you check it over so that you know that it is correct? A. I did.

Q. I guess that is all.


Q. Mr. Northrup, does your firm employ any pull down cutters? A. None.

Q. Have you any statement that you wish to make in regard to testimony already offered here? A. I read in the paper, I don't know how true it is, that there was a cutter here testified here by the name of A.G. Lovey, employed by our concern, and that he was earning twelve dollars a week. His average wage for 52 weeks was $13.40 and for the 46 weeks in which he put in full time, apparently, according to this payroll here, it was $14.56, and I might say as far as this man is concerned that $27.47 is the regular wage starting in at that time. We pay every two weeks and that will have to be divided to get the weekly wage. We divided it that way in the statement we made, and that you have, that we made, and you will find that it turns out to be as follows: $30.43, 31.40, 28.57; 33.94; 32.45; 30.46; 30.09; 28.64; 29.15; 26.67; that was a period in December, around the holidays; 27.94; 25.31; 28.03; 29.12; 31.63; 31.13; 29.69; 26.45; 29.75; 25.74; and 30.31. I would like to make a little explanation in reference to this man. I will say that he is a very conscientious worker and a man that has been more or less unfortunate in not being in the best of health all the time. He has been in trouble. I happen to know considerably about this man, because he happens to be related to my partner, Mr. Genner. Twice during the past year he has been in such physical condition that we had to employ a taxi and rigs and send him home because he was attacked with acute indigestion. But during the few periods he was away we included that in here.


Q. Is he an average cutter? A. No, sir, that is as far as speed is concerned.

Q. I mean workmanship? A. His workmanship is absolutely satisfactory.


Q. And have you also furnished at our request, have you selected six average fair cutters, have you selected a number of fair average cutters, working from eight to ten hours a day, and if you have just give us their average weekly wage? A. Yes, we have selected some. Here is a man, - - you see we have no way of arriving at the amount of hours they work. I asked our superintendent to make an estimate of it and he estimated that those men would average all of them nine hours a day. This does not include the Saturday afternoons. Here is a man who has been in our employ for some time, $45.06, $40.08; $41.01; $34.94; $34.85; $38.38; $39.57; $42.24; $38.38; $37.17; $36.80; $39.91; $31.77; $26.88. That is during that period that that man was not at work. $36; $38; $30.23; $37.04; $33.00; 37.90; 40.79; 35.21.


Q. These are for a two weeks period? A. That covered a period from the 26th day of July 1913 to June 1st 1914. I just had this transcript made quickly when I found out that they wanted them.

Q. These are for two week periods any way? A. Yes, you see we only pay for every two weeks, and to arrive at the average we have to divide by two.

Q. Have your furnished your full payrolls to our statisticians? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is the purpose of reading this into the record; we will have all of that?

MR. BAKER: For the purpose of showing the average, what we claim to be a fair earning capacity, or a fair earning average of a skilled cutter.

MR. ROGERS: As far as we have the payroll on hand and in our possession at present we would rather have the cutters produced here. Although we haven't any objection to having that read.

MR. BAKER: Our theory is this. You have called a certain few, and the names selected here up to date, were undoubtedly furnished you by a committee and you called just those cutters and apparently from their testimony the average wage is $13 and I thought that this was a more speedy way than to call ten or twelve men here, who we claim show a fair average earning capacity, and so to meet that testimony we have asked the manufacturers to take from their payrolls, seven or eight, six or five, whatever he might select of the fair average cutters and read their wages into the record, so you would know. You see, from the payroll itself, the men can not tell whether these men worked ten hours or eleven hours a day or what they worked.


Q. From this memorandum can't he tell?

MR. BAKER: He estimates this to be a nine hour day.

THE WITNESS: We selected these men because they are looked upon as being good average workmen, and as putting in nine hours a day.


Q. Have you averaged that up? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, just read the average into the record, read it from your statement? A. In connection with that I would like to say that I have averaged them in two ways. I have averaged them for the weeks which the payrolls show conclusively they have worked, full time, I mean, and I will give you that number of weeks and then I have averaged them for the entire fifty weeks, regardless of whether they worked or whether they did not.

Q. State the names and averages on both those bases and leave out the individual weeks? A. E. Geibert, his average for 42 weeks was $18.92; and for 52 weeks, $15.28, possibly these figures will show some variation. Perhaps they will need some verification. I only went over them once. I think they are correct. Then, we have, A.G. Lovey, that was the cutter who testified he worked in our factory and his average in 46 weeks was $14.50 and his average wage in 52 weeks was $13.40. George Haywood average for 46 weeks $22.71; for 52 weeks $20.10; George Borden, average for 44 weeks $15.26 average for 52 weeks $14.60. H. Haywood, average for 44 weeks $17.75 and the average for 52 weeks, exactly $15.00. L. Oler, average for 44 weeks $17.87, and for 52 weeks $15.10. L. Wilson, average for 42 weeks $19.42 for 52 weeks $15.70. These were just men that were furnished me. I asked my partner, Mr. Genner, to supply me with the names of men whom he considered conscientious workmen and that put in what we term full time and he supplied those names, and the figures are just as I have stated.


Q. They are not your speediest men? A. No, that is the average as I stated.

Q. They are fair workmen? A. Yes, sir.


Q. Did you have any trouble with the cutters as to the taxation of the skins? A. I think the methods we employed there are different from some of the other factories. We have two men who have worked for the concern for over thirty years, and four or five men who have been there over twenty, some ten men been there between ten and fifteen years, and it is more or less of a family proposition. Every man who is working there, is trusted, and of course the longer they work for us the more they are trusted and they have an advantage.


Q. So far as Johnstown is concerned, the men that testified here, had no complaint to make so far as taxing the skins were concerned, and they did not attack any of the manufacturers in Johnstown regarding the tax? A. If I could have a word in regard to that and possibly this is something that has not been brought out, at least if it has I have not seen it in the paper. When we get a very small quantity of stock, that is, it is numbered with these numbers that we use other than the regular stock; those special orders we receive, as a rule, it is put through, what we call the special, that is, it goes through for some particular concern from leather to the finished product, and our foreman in sorting the leather, of course, takes into consideration the grades, and the standards, and the rest involved and the foreman gives the men approximately what he thinks is in the skins to cut according to the scale he goes on, and these men have been there so long that they know our numbers just about as well as we know them ourselves, and if they find that the number is not up to the standard, they have a right to put that into a glove in a lower scale and it simply comes down to the foreman, the quality is not here and we want so many skins; the man will say I want so many skins more, so many more skins, of that glove, and they will get them. Of course, I suppose if we had a lot of new men and didn't know with whom we were dealing we would not be that way but that is our position any way.


Q. Is your firm a member of the Association? A. They are.

Q. Is there anything further you want to say? A. Why, the only thing that I want to say is, that I can not find that we have ever administered any fines. We do not have any fining system there, and we don't have any occasion to use the fining system. During the months of August and September, 1913, compared to the same months, the orders in 1914, they were approximately 30 percent less this year, and if it would be of interest to you, gentlemen, I have that figured out here, in case you want the information as to the number of gloves.


Q. We have not asked that of the other manufacturers, but if you care to bring the information we want to have it? A. I have no objection whatever in giving it to you. In 1913, the orders for August and September amounted to 2315 dozen; and the same period in 1914, the orders received amount to 1810 dozens.

Q. How much of those sales this year were at an advanced price? A. If we had an average, I could answer that better, that if we had averaged the price for the same gloves, that is, the 1810 dozen this year, that we averaged for the 2515 dozen in 1913, we would be absolutely satisfied. We have sold, it is true, a few dozens, that is, right along the first part or during August I mean, when this flurry came up, a few concerns thought they were never going to get any more gloves, and there was placed a few orders at an advance, but they were very few and a considerable number of those few were cancelled.


Q. Since then has there been any higher prices for goods offered? A. Well, at the best evidence of that, we have got on our cutting books today, - we haven't enough incoming orders on our books today to employ our normal force of thirty men for three days. That is true extract of the books which was taken yesterday morning, and is a matter of record if any one wishes to see them.

Q. Has some of your gloves been sold at a less price than last year? A. There have been some of them sold at the same price but there has been no material reduction. In some cases we have been called upon to sell at less, for instance we had a glove that sold heretofore for $13.50 and when the tariff was reduced two of our largest foreign competitors reduced the price of the same grade and character of glove to $12.50 and we had to either meet them or stop manufacturing the gloves, and we chose the latter relief, of course, because if we cut it out at $12.50 we would have to pay it out at an absolute loss.


Q. Is there any other information that you have for us? A. None that I know of.

MR. ROGERS: That is all then.

W E N D E L L T. M U R R A Y, called as a witness and being duly sworn testified as follows:


Q. You are in the employ of the Louis Meyers & Son Co.? A. I am.


Q. Have you examined the payroll kept there of certain months and of certain employees whose names you will refer to and hereafter mention as being sworn in this hearing? A. Yes, I have.

Q. Now, have you that list, -


Q. In what capacity are you employed by the Louis Meyers Co.? A. Why my official position is Assistant Superintendent and Accountant and Efficiency Man.


Q. Now, you have been handed the names of certain employees who have been sworn in this hearing? A. Yes.

Q. Have you? A. I have, yes.

Q. Have you compared their statements said to have been made here with what your records there show? A. I made an abstract from the actual payroll, signed by them and checked them up with their statements.

Q. Will you take the list, give the names and what they swore to here? A. I haven't the dates of the testimony here, but the reporter probably has it on the court record, but there is Charles Kuehnle, testified that he worked there from 7 A.M. to 6 P.M. and sometimes over time, made $12.50, on an average, and I made an abstract of the payroll showing his actual earnings, and you want that week by week?


Q. No? A. You know that?

Q. Yes? A. The average is $14.06.

Q. Average of what? A. His average for the entire period covered by the period in question and going down to as low as $4 for a week, which I included as a full week.

Q. Well, are you dividing his total earnings for a given period by the number of paydays or by the number of weeks in the year? A. This is for the period from January 1st to June 30th, which is a period of 24 weeks and which includes all paydays big and small.


Q. Well, we will make our own averages from your actual and physical payrolls, then? A. Yes, it is here.

Q. However there is no objection to your stating whatever you wish to? A. Instead of working overtime, our foreman states that this man is abdicated to the habit of always coming back and monkeying a lot of his time over his lots, claiming that he can not get his averages, but always comes back and gets his average. He comes back and spends a little time visiting around the cutting room and not looking for scraps which are left.


Q. Take up the next one? A. The next one was John Compo. It is John Compopiano. He said he worked eleven hours day and made $14.00 and some times $15.00. The only period that this man ever worked 11 hours a day was the period from the 15th of May until about the Fourth of July week, this year. I am not sure that he worked eleven hours a day then, but the privilege was taken advantage of by not to exceed twelve men out of one hundred and forty, and his actual earnings were as I have stated, and in addition to this he took time off. He devoted his time to acting as a leather salesman, and would come around to us with a bundle of skins under his arm and spend a considerable amount of time that way selling skins for some one and around somewhere. I am not sure who he was selling for. It is quite evident that one week he spent most of his time, because he earned a trifle over or under $4.00, but that week is included in his average as a full week and his average in six months was $15.60. Of course his testimony stated that $15 was the highest that he ever earned and his highest was $26.58 instead of $15 and the average was $15.60.

Q. The next one. A. The next one was Nathan James, who testified that his average was $13 and that a great many weeks it was $11. For this entire period, figuring every week a full week and there were three weeks he was sick, one week he ran in a small lot that amounts to $1.82 and the next week was $4.95 and the next week was $6.99. Now, you take those three weeks, amounting in all, for the three weeks to only $13, those are included as full weeks in the average, and his average for the 25 weeks including these three weeks, when practically no work was done was $13.80. The highest he earned was $24.83. Several weeks would run along $21.41; $20.89, $24.33 and it showed that by close attention to business he did not have to get down to $11 a week.


Q. He was there at six o'clock on those mornings? A. Well, as I have told you, there were twelve or fifteen men that took advantage of coming in at six o'clock in the morning during that period; for about six weeks.

Q. I see? A. The next one was Simon Lieberman. His testimony showed that he averaged for 34 weeks $12.93. Well, now, his testimony is the nearest correct of any testimony that I have corrected yet. That was about fourteen cents out of the way. His average was $13.04. The next one employed by us and who testified was Tony Compo, otherwise Antonio Compopiano and he testified that he worked eight hours a day for five days and five hours on Saturday, that he earned from seven to twelve dollars a week. Now, this mans work is very irregular. He works very erratically. Instead of working eight hours a day I don't think he will average five hours a day. I think he will average five hours a day. The only period he only worked eight hours a day, was when he was working by the day and then he went to work at seven in the morning and worked until six and I think that during the five weeks period he took advantage of getting in an extra hour in the morning, for which he was paid 30 cents an hour. The highest wage he made of course, was when he was working by the day, and was $19.80. His average for himself was $11.70. He is a good workman and works fast when he puts in the time. He comes to work at ten o'clock in the morning and goes out when he wishes to and comes back in the afternoon when he feels like it. He says in order to make a living his wife has to help him and she brought home or earned some four to nine dollars a week. Now, as a matter of fact, during this period, which you called for by the payrolls she has not worked very much for us, but in years past she has worked steadily for us and earned over a hundred dollars a month in certain specified months and she averages about $20 a week. I have made an examination of the books of the concerns she has worked for the past year and a half and give you a true statement of her earnings in this period, which he represents before the Board, it was nine dollars a week. Will you allow me to give that? The testimony is that he has been obliged to have her work to help him make a living for the family.


Q. Did you strike an average? A. Her average divided by the fifty two weeks was $18.52.

Q. Where has she been working? A. Partly down at Fernandez and partly for us. The payroll runs $18.27 in Fernandez and the same week $4.00 from us; same week $17.42 Fernandez and $3.00 from us. Next week $16.17 Fernandez and $2.00 from us; the next week $18.05 Fernandez and $3.00 from us.

Q. You have already stated the average? A. The average is $18.27.


Q. Does she work in the factory or does she do this at home? A. Some in the factory and some at home.

Q. When she worked in the factories she was earning $18 in one factory and $3.00 in yours? A. I already told you that she has not worked in our factory in some time but when she did work in our factory she has earned in excess of one hundred dollars a month.


Q. He is the man who told that he took some work home to do? A. Oh, that was the work that was solicited, he asked for an extra few dozen for the home work and being in our employ we accommodated him.

Q. This work was all done at home? A. Yes, all I am offering is what she has earned.

Q. You don't know whether she earned that or had two or three assistants with her or not? A. I know she has been paid that. That is all I know. I am simply offering that for what it is worth and that is simply an abstract from a payroll. That is money that has been paid to her and signed for by her. Do you want any statements outside of what your statisticians are in possession of from the payrolls, the average earnings from the average cutters or any percentage of the cutters, average cutters prices.


Q. Have you the name? A. Yes, sir, if you want the names, I will give you any specific ones you want and a general average of the whole.

Q. What is that, the entire payroll? A. This is all, practically all of the payroll. This is of men who have worked six months or more at a minimum earning and maximum earning and the average was for 101 cutters who have been practically the stable employees from the beginning of the year to the end of the year and the average is $15.88, and that includes weeks when they have been earning as much as $1.50 and 95 cents a week.

Q. Does that result from dividing their total earnings by fifty two or the total number of paydays? A. The total number of paydays which have been fifty.

Q. We figure that for our averages, probably on the total number of weeks in the year, 52? A. Well, that is hardly fair.

Q. Why is it hardly fair? A. There are some men here that have had 51 pays. There are a few isolated cases where men were given work to take home and work on during the weeks we were closed for inventory. If a man doesn't come to work and goes off on a vacation, or, if the time he is off is not included in a proposition of this kind, what is the use of our closing down in the month of July. We have to work, that time, and there are very few of them who do not go off on a vacation, that is certainly not the fault of any one, because there is work and if they don't care to work, why, it certainly does not show the average by dividing the total amount they earned by 52.

Q. It would show the average income? A. If you chose to take a vacation at your own expense it does not reduce your income. You can work, if you want to.

Q. If the factory is working for 48 or 52 weeks, as the case may be, it is hard to assume that the regular employees of your factory can work else work at the same business during those other weeks when they are on a vacation? A. No, but that is the very average. It is not a weekly average by any means.

Q. We are interested in the average weekly earnings of the men for the year? You have got to take the weekly work. Your statistician will probably tell you that you did not divide it in that way.

Q. We expect to divide it in both ways, we expect to find the average weekly earnings when they did work and also, I will state, the average weekly earnings during the year? A. Well, they will show a small or slight difference between the two ways of figuring. You say you don't want a certain lot of cutters, or average cutters and so on. I have taken these 101 cutters. I do not mean to have you understand that 101 cutters have worked for us during that year, but the cutter who works for a couple of months, he may prove to be a good cutter or he may be a man whose work is not what it ought to be and has gone away somewhere else, then of course you can not consider him as an average man, or a man whose average wage should be taken into consideration. You have to consider the men who have worked the year around and there were 101 of those men. Of those men there were 24, of the average cutters who worked a full year and they average over $18 a week. Of those 24 men, one of them had an average of $24.12 for the entire time.

Q. That is your highest man? A. $25.12 for the entire years work and there were 24 others that earned around $18 and over that and then there were, -


Q. From $18 up? A. $18 up to $25.12. From $18 down to $15 there were 37. There were 40 that averaged below $15. The lowest one in the lot was $7.58.

Q. That is all based on a 50 week year? A. All based on a 50 week year. And out of the 40 who average below $15, 26 of them earned a greater proportion of their wages over 15 weeks and some of them during that time exceeded $18, but their wages, as I say, for the 40 cutters was below $15.


Q. Well, isn't it a fact that in some of those weeks that the men have received credit or pay for gloves which they turned in the previous weeks, that is, they turned them in later than the prescribed time and they received their pay for them the following week? A. Sometimes the men will have left over five dozen and sometimes the pay for that will not go into that week's wages. It may be that it will amount to four dollars and something and it goes into the next week's earnings and the next week may be normal and the next week may be small. Of course if it shows a payroll of $25 for one week it is not fair for us to take that one week and say that is his earnings, because $5 comes in from the previous week. I am trying to give you an average.

Q. Have you included in the 101 men a statement of men who have assisted by an apprentice? A. Yes, I can pick out some of the men. I think there are some here.

Q. How about the man who averaged $25 a week? A. Now, the man who averaged $25 a week, he did not have an apprentice.

Q. What was his name? A. I believe his name was Galvanno, you will have to find that. $25.12 was the high man with an apprentice, Joseph Nearo. Here is $23.41 for an average for a man here, a man without an apprentice. His name was Rogo.

Q. Did he do any work at home? A. Did he work at home? I could not tell you. He might have had a batch of skins at inventory time or Christmas time to take home. Your sheets will check up with any of these statements and you can verify them yourself. That is all signed.

Q. That is all. I thank you.


Q. Is there anything further? A. Not that I know.

MR. ROGERS: We will meet at two o'clock for the reception of any other testimony which may be desired to be offered by either the cutters or the manufacturers, either on any new points which may come up or any explanation or contradiction of any testimony that has been offered heretofore. I think we will adjourn tonight that is the public hearings. I see no reason why we should detain the other gentlemen this afternoon. If there are any representatives of cutters or any of the manufacturers who desire a subpoena issued for any person to be in attendance this afternoon and whose attendance they can not voluntarily secure, I wish that you would speak to me about it immediately.

(Adjournment taken until 2:00 P.M.
Same Date)

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